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Private Purchase/Sale

orei

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Hello!
In a situation where you have an informal agreement to purchase a property (ie. verbal, no realtor involved), what are the steps to formalize the offer?
1) Do I forward the information to my lawyer and ask him to write it up?
2) Can I use the OREA Form 100 (for Ontario) myself and draft up the purchase agreement (and then forward to my lawyer)?

Some insight from someone with experience would be greatly appreciated!
 

Thomas Beyer

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a napkin suffices if there is a clear description of timelines, $s, the asset, the buyer and the seller.. but better is a formal contract. A blank ( OREA or other board based) contract is best and cheapest .. but for the first few times a realtor or lawyer should look at it for a (small?) fee ..
 

Mike Milovick

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QUOTE (orei @ Dec 3 2010, 01:37 PM) Hello!
In a situation where you have an informal agreement to purchase a property (ie. verbal, no realtor involved), what are the steps to formalize the offer?
1) Do I forward the information to my lawyer and ask him to write it up?
2) Can I use the OREA Form 100 (for Ontario) myself and draft up the purchase agreement (and then forward to my lawyer)?

Some insight from someone with experience would be greatly appreciated!


Hi!

Couple quick thoughts:

1. Note: in Ontario, a verbal agreement, concerning real estate is not binding.
2. Your lawyer could write up an offer on your behalf - think large money - and you would also procure his services to to deal with sign backs/explain the contract etc. In our area, real estate lawyers are charging fees on fsbo properties that are actually more than what real estate commissions are - as the lawyers are having to do the due diligence/incur liability in lieu of realtor involvement.
3. You may not use the OREA Form. It is copy-writed.
4. I would suggest using a Realtor to write up the agreement. Pre-negotiate a rate. As the Realtor is not running around showing you properties and spending a lot of time, you should be able to get this handled at a reasonable cost. He may be able to even provide you with some comparables.

Mike
 

Mike Milovick

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Dec 3 2010, 01:46 PM) An OREA contract is best and cheapest

This advice could get you in legal trouble, if caught, in Ontario.

I do not know if the realtor forms are copy-writed in Alberta. They certainly are in Ontario.

Please note the bottom of each OREA form. It specifically says, "All rights reserved. Developed by OREA, for the Reproduction of its Members and Licensees."

The advice Thomas has provided regarding the OREA form is erroneous and should be removed.

Mike
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 3 2010, 03:09 PM) This advice could get you in legal trouble, if caught, in Ontario.

I do not know if the realtor forms are copy-writed in Alberta. They certainly are in Ontario.

Please note the bottom of each OREA form. It specifically says, "All rights reserved. Developed by OREA, for the Reproduction of its Members and Licensees."

The advice Thomas has provided regarding the OREA form is erroneous and should be removed.

Mike
I didn`t give ADVICE .. I gave an OPINION !!

People are advised that any contract they use is at their own risk .. even if copied from REIN website or realtors or me or anyone !

You are telling me that I or anyone cannot use a blank (OREA or any other board based) contract without a realtor ?

ARE YOU SURE ??
 

Mike Milovick

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Dec 3 2010, 04:38 PM) I didn`t give ADVICE .. I gave an OPINION !!

People are advised that any contract they use is at their own risk .. even if copied from REIN website or realtors or me or anyone !

You are telling me that I or anyone cannot use a blank OREA contract without a realtor ?

ARE YOU SURE ??

Hi Thomas;

I am not saying you can not use a blank OREA contract. You can do whatever you what. You can choose to fraudulently represent yourself when applying for financing. But you need to be aware of the risks. Many REIN members are not as seasoned or as risk adverse as you are.

The REIN forum is not an appropriate place to provide a misguided opinion. You are very well respected and someone may interpret your opinion, which in this case is erroneous, as advice.

You can use a blank OREA contract. As long as you are a member or a licensee of OREA.

Mike
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 3 2010, 02:00 PM) 3. You may not use the OREA Form. It is copy-writed.

Has that ever been litigated? It seems to me (and I`m certainly not a lawyer) that this might be a situation where someone might say something, and then choose to not enforce their statement through the courts for fear of losing a case and setting a precedent. Then that person or organization could make the statement, and deter almost everyone, without actually having any legal right to enforce the statement.

But maybe OREA would take the time to enforce that copyright clause. Of course, they would have to establish precedent for contracts being copyrightable, which I don`t believe has ever been established in Canada.

Michael
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 3 2010, 05:36 PM) ... But you need to be aware of the risks. Many REIN members are not as seasoned or as risk adverse as you are.

The REIN forum is not an appropriate place to provide a misguided opinion. You are very well respected and someone may interpret your opinion, which in this case is erroneous, as advice.
I hope people understand that this is a DISCUSSION FORUM .. a medium for exchange of OPINIONS .. a way to look at issues from different angles.

I might suggest "Angle X" makes sense to me .. and other folks say "how about angle Y" .. or "I have done Z and done well" .. doesn`t mean that X or Y or Z is better .. X, Y and Z might all be inappropriate or mis-guided for the specific situation whose full context if often not disclosed or visible to readers .. but hopefully gives the poster more insight into options or scenarios or similar situation so she/he can learn and make a better decision !

QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 3 2010, 05:36 PM) ... ... You can use a blank OREA contract. As long as you are a member or a licensee of OREA.
I wonder if this statement is true.
 

manojsingh

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I agree with Thoms. This is forum and each one is giving opinion here not kegal advice. I learned a lot from Thomas . He is doing great service for investor like us. Thanks
 

housingrental

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The last time I bought a place privately my lawyer reviewed the offer and made suggestions for fairly cheap ($200?)
Give me an email for introduction and let me know your new projects info
Also never a bad time to sell either of your current places if your interested I can help take them off your hands
 

Mike Milovick

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Dec 3 2010, 08:12 PM) I hope people understand that this is a DISCUSSION FORUM .. a medium for exchange of OPINIONS .. a way to look at issues from different angles.

I might suggest "Angle X" makes sense to me .. and other folks say "how about angle Y" .. or "I have done Z and done well" .. doesn`t mean that X or Y or Z is better .. X, Y and Z might all be inappropriate or mis-guided for the specific situation whose full context if often not disclosed or visible to readers .. but hopefully gives the poster more insight into options or scenarios or similar situation so she/he can learn and make a better decision !


I wonder if this statement is true.

Hi Thomas;

Read the bottom of OREA forms.

Take a blank OREA contract in to Kinkos and ask them to copy it.

And then think, "Hmmmmm, if I am not allowed to even copy it, am I really allowed to use it?"

Its no different than stealing music and movies off the internet without paying for them.

If Angle X is unethical, Angle X shouldn`t be explored. REIN prides itself on full disclosure and doing things correctly.

Do you really want to challenge OREA on its ability to enforce the unauthorized use of its copyrighted forms - or suggest REIN Members do the same?

Your posts concerning this are erroneous and should be removed.

Mike
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 4 2010, 10:00 AM) Hi Thomas;

Read the bottom of OREA forms.
..
why don`t you send me one as I don`t have any and do not buy residential real estate in Ontario. I edited my post as it seemed to have upset you which wasn`t my intention.

A BLANK OFFER FORM (that is not copyrighted) IS FINE. Staples or Kinko`s often has them !
 

orei

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Thanks Thomas and Mike. I believe that everyone who uses/reads this forum finds the exchange of opinions and advice invaluable - especially coming from those with the expertise and experience to draw on. I know there are many, like me, who follow this forum religiously and have learned alot from the frequent contributors (but not from the spammers... but this is another topic).

I think in this situation:
1) Mike`s comment on copyright is valid. Indeed Form 100 is marked copyright. There is nothing gained by taking any (percieved or real) risk of using this form.
2) There are forms available that can be used instead from FSBO companies (easy to find with some research). Use these at your own risk as well.
3) Adams comment that if the deal has been agreed on, a lawyers charges with be minimum. A couple hundred bucks will suffice (this I have verified). If there is negotiations needed, Mike may be right that a realtor could be more cost effective (this I have not verified).

Thanks again...
 

housingrental

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I EDITED THIS POST DUE TO EMAIL REQUEST OF "OREI"

QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Dec 4 2010, 11:46 AM) why don`t you send me one as I don`t have any and do not buy residential real estate in Ontario. I edited my post as it seemed to have upset you which wasn`t my intention.

A BLANK FORM IS FINE.
 

housingrental

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I EDITED THIS POST DUE TO EMAIL REQUEST OF "OREI"
QUOTE (orei @ Dec 4 2010, 01:49 PM) Thanks Thomas and Mike. I believe that everyone who uses/reads this forum finds the exchange of opinions and advice invaluable - especially coming from those with the expertise and experience to draw on. I know there are many, like me, who follow this forum religiously and have learned alot from the frequent contributors (but not from the spammers... but this is another topic).

I think in this situation:
1) Mike`s comment on copyright is valid. Indeed Form 100 is marked copyright. There is nothing gained by taking any (percieved or real) risk of using this form.
2) There are forms available that can be used instead from FSBO companies (easy to find with some research). Use these at your own risk as well.
3) Adams comment that if the deal has been agreed on, a lawyers charges with be minimum. A couple hundred bucks will suffice (this I have verified). If there is negotiations needed, Mike may be right that a realtor could be more cost effective (this I have not verified).

Thanks again...
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (housingrental @ Dec 4 2010, 02:06 PM) Is Mike Milovick the Lars Ulrich of realtor`s?
who`s Lars Ulrich ?
 

housingrental

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Hi Thomas
He is the drummer of the music group "Metallica" who is also famous for his attacks on people illegally downloading music. From Wikipedia:
who`s Lars Ulrich ?
 

Berubeland

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I am absolutely disgusted with Mike`s fear mongering. It`s sour grapes at its finest. You act like real estate agents are some kind of legal experts instead of people who have taken a minimal amount of correspondence courses.
Truth is that every single deal is overseen by a lawyer
for a good reason. Furthermore if it weren`t for cut and paste technology you`d be even further up the creek.

The Agreement of Purchase and Sale is a simple fill in the blank form. It can be purchased at Staples for 10$ in disk form.

Get over yourself, this is like me insisting that every owner should hire a property manager or someone to rent out their place. I provide a good service for those who choose to use them. I am not essential and neither are you. People who don`t use my services save money and so do people who don`t use your service. It`s not rocket science.

Ridiculous
 

jwilbrin

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QUOTE (orei @ Dec 3 2010, 11:37 AM) Hello!
In a situation where you have an informal agreement to purchase a property (ie. verbal, no realtor involved), what are the steps to formalize the offer?
1) Do I forward the information to my lawyer and ask him to write it up?
2) Can I use the OREA Form 100 (for Ontario) myself and draft up the purchase agreement (and then forward to my lawyer)?

Some insight from someone with experience would be greatly appreciated!

Whenever we have bought or sold a property privately, we have always gone to our RE lawyer who does all of our closings. He gives us the Alberta Real Estate Purchase Contract which their office gets from the Alberta Real Estate Association, we fill in the details and forward it on to him to review and take care of the closing.

Call the lawyer that you will be using for the closing, I`m sure they will give you the forms.

Good luck.
 

housingrental

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Easy on the hateMike Milovick is not fear mongering, just stating fact
Private sales often make use of forms different, and unfortunately often with less clarity on situations when things go wrong and less protections - especially for buyers - than Realtor`s provide

It does not need to follow from this that you have to make use of a realtor. After re-reading the posts in this thread it is clear that he has not claimed this. He has just brought up a good point - that realtor`s can offer segmented services for a fraction of the cost of what they provide for full service, and these services can often be cheaper than going through a lawyer on some of the same.

Also of note is that some realtors have a lot more knowledge to offer than can be gained from "a minimal amount of correspondence courses" - and can provide significant added value to someone making use of their services beyond the cost of their fee. I`d rather not pay $10 at Staples and pay significantly more to gain insight from someone like Mike Milovick on a transaction - someone who has managed over 400 units, has owned a significant rental portfolio for a long period of time, and is also VP of WRAMA - www.wrama.com-

Transactions sometimes don`t close as expected, and not all purchases and sales are of tract subdivision housing where an exact value is easily determined. Especially for an investor, realtor`s can add significant value.
QUOTE (Berubeland @ Dec 6 2010, 09:50 AM) I am absolutely disgusted with Mike`s fear mongering. It`s sour grapes at its finest. You act like real estate agents are some kind of legal experts instead of people who have taken a minimal amount of correspondence courses.

Truth is that every single deal is overseen by a lawyer
for a good reason. Furthermore if it weren`t for cut and paste technology you`d be even further up the creek.

The Agreement of Purchase and Sale is a simple fill in the blank form. It can be purchased at Staples for 10$ in disk form.

Get over yourself, this is like me insisting that every owner should hire a property manager or someone to rent out their place. I provide a good service for those who choose to use them. I am not essential and neither are you. People who don`t use my services save money and so do people who don`t use your service. It`s not rocket science.

Ridiculous
 
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