A Depression Looms

Jack

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Aug 22, 2008
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#1
-Canada`s job market is being slammed by the worsening US recession, and is now poised for a hit from slumping energy prices. The year-old recession in the US has entered a more serious phase that is likely to drag on for another year, as massive job losses piled up much more quickly than forecast. -Over half-a-million jobs disappeared in November, the biggest drop since 1974 and the 11th month in a row for job losses that seem to be picking up speed. The deteriorating job picture is a clear sign, many economists said, that the recession will be worse than expected. "This is almost indescribably terrible," said Ian Shepherdson, chief US economist at High Frequency Economics. "The pace of job losses is accelerating alarmingly." -Canada suffered its biggest monthly job losses last month since the recession of 1982 as 70,600 positions disappeared. - And the US is far from the only weight on Canada`s job picture. The services side of the economy, which is more isolated from US demand, also shed 38,000 jobs in the month - a sign that the sources of Canada`s economic weakness are not just the US, but also a deceleration in consumer spending, business investment and the housing market, economists said. -As energy prices fall, Western Canadian companies are scaling back their capital budgets and cancelling and postponing major projects, and some economists are warning that the oil and gas sector will see slumping employment as prices continue to skid.

-Crude oil prices fell to US$40.81 a barrel in New York yesterday, down 25% on the week and touching their lowest level since December 2004
. Prices could fall below $25 if
China`s
economy stumbles
and the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries fails to sufficiently rein in production, said economists at Merrill Lynch.

-And Canada`s manufacturing sector`s
woes
are far from over
, with more pain to come in the auto sector. General Motors of Canada will lay off 700 employees at its
Oshawa
, ON, car plant in February
amid poor sales and a massive, North America-wide production cutback in the first quarter.

-Peter
Morici
, economist professor at the University of Maryland. "This was much worse than was expected and represents wholesale capitulation,"
he said of the job numbers. "The threat of a widespread depression is now real and present."
The difference, he explained, is that a recession is self-correcting, while a depression is not
. Policy measures can soften the blow or shorten a recession, but generally, recessions resolve themselves on their own. Depressions
, on the other hand, require governments to take bold measures to fix the underlying causes
.

-No US recession since the 1930s Depression has lasted longer than 16 months, but the current downtown seems destined to eclipse that
.


(Globe and Mail, National Post 081206)

-No link - older issue
 

MonteDobson

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Oct 7, 2007
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Regina, SK
#2
Check out this story as well...some more interesting facts and perspective on the Canadian Job market, both negative and positive...funny how you can spin an article any way you want by picking out the pieces.Headline: Massive job losses hit Canada, US- The Canadian economy lost a much greater than feared 71,000 jobs in November, the worst monthly loss in more than a quarter century, and a taste of what`s to come, while the U.S. lost more than half a million more jobs, bringing the losses since the recession there began a year ago to nearly 1.9 million.

- Here, the much worse than expected job losses were the most since the early-1980s recession, ending three straight months of gains and nudging the unemployment rate up a notch to a two-year high of 6.3 per cent.

- "Today`s labour market report is further evidence that Canada`s economy - particularly its manufacturing sector
- is facing enormous challenges as a result of the global slowdown," said Finance Minister Jim Flaherty, adding that new measures needed to stimulate the economy will be included in his Jan. 27 budget.

- While wages for permanent workers were also up by a more than expected 4.7 per cen
t, that`s not expected to deter the central bank from cutting rates.

- The struggling Ontario economy bore the brunt of the losses with 66,000 jobs disappearing
, 42,200 of them in the battered manufacturing sector, which sent the newly "have-not" province`s unemployment rate to a five year high of 7.1 per cent. Nova Scotia lost 4,400 jobs and Alberta 3,700
.

- There were modest job gains
of 2,400 in Manitoba, 2,500 in Quebec, 1,300 in Saskatchewan, and 200 in Newfoundland and Labrador, which recently escaped its long-standing have-not status.

- The Canadian job market, however, is in a lot better shape than the U.S. labour market, having created 133,000 jobs during the first 11 months of the year, compared with the loss of nearly 2 million jobs there.


http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=1036943
 
#3
some people will never be successful in investing their own (or other people`s money) because there is always a reason why they should NOT invest ..

more here: http://www.prestprop.com/top10/NoInvestBecause.pdf ..

why live .. you die anyway ..

why make your bed .. it will be cruply again in the evening ..

why shave .. the beard grows anyway ..

why invest .. there is always risk ..

why laugh .. with so much pain in the world ..

why help others .. if you get screwed over by others anyway ...
 

GSI

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REIN Member
Aug 30, 2007
200
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Edmonton, Alberta
#4
QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Dec 8 2008, 02:58 PM) some people will never be successful in investing their own (or other people`s money) because there is always a reason why they should NOT invest ..

more here: http://www.prestprop.com/top10/NoInvestBecause.pdf ..

why live .. you die anyway ..

why make your bed .. it will be cruply again in the evening ..

why shave .. the beard grows anyway ..

why invest .. there is always risk ..

why laugh .. with so much pain in the world ..

why help others .. if you get screwed over by others anyway ...

Thomas,

That is excellent.

One more....

Why be positive... when there is so much negative to lament...
 

Jack

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Aug 22, 2008
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Calgary
#5
QUOTE Why be positive... when there is so much negative to lament...

Why consider reality...unless it`s good news...
 

Nir

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REIN Member
Dec 5, 2007
2,880
1
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Toronto
#7
Jack, are you sure you are not a secret Tylenol employee? why do I see Tylenols flying every time you post? (Joking)

I actually learn a lot from your postings - it reminds me people are so afraid of tomorrow that I better buy my next property soon before negotiating SUPERB prices becomes tough again.

Cheers,
Neil
 

Jack

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Aug 22, 2008
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Calgary
#8
QUOTE I actually learn a lot from your postings - it reminds me people are so afraid of tomorrow that I better buy my next property soon before negotiating SUPERB prices becomes tough again.

Go ahead! Buy all the property you want, congratulations. I assure you that I`m not "afraid of tomorrow", I`d just prefer to not be a dumbass and rush out to buy real estate at a time when the probability of it being worth less in a year is very high. I`ve done that once, in January of 2007, and I intend for that to never happen again.

And yes, I can already hear the rebuttal - but even though it`ll go down in `09, things will turn around in [strike]`10! [strike]`11[/strike]! `12[/strike]! `13! - but this was a similar rebuttal to what I was hearing in about 3Q07 when many on these boards were saying that Canada is "recession-proof", that activity will start to pick up again in the spring of `08, etc. Didn`t happen. And even then, do the math. You buy property "A" in Calgary today for $250,000. It`s worth 8% less in December of 2009. This brings its value down to $230,000. Finally, things bounce back in 2010, and you`re given two consecutive years of 7% growth. That brings its value to $263,327 at the end of 2011. Congratulations, you`ve just earned a compounded annual return of 1.7%. And between marketing, administration, management, etc., that`s a 1.7% that you probably worked very hard for. And sure, there`s mortgage paydown over that two years, but that`s wiped out three times over by transaction costs upon the sale.

Anyway, I work downtown and have a lot of peers in the core that I talk to daily. Has there been mentioning of EnCana`s choice to not split into two entities? Why could that be? There goes a heap of previously forecasted jobs. How about EnCana cancelling their once-legendary Christmas party? How about C.P. Rail eliminating their flex days and laying off 600 union members? There are some pretty jacked-up things happening right now, I assure you. These aren`t "phony", these aren`t "negative", this is what`s going down.
 

joe123

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Registered
Aug 31, 2008
52
4
8
Edmonton / Nanaimo
#9
I too got burned buying in 2007, could have unloaded when things started to look bad, for a bit of a loss, but all the positivity of 2008 being better yatta yatta, I hung on to them, now just a brutal loss, quite cripling infact, all my gains of 2006 are gone. Usually I`m positive, but no matter how good things look on paper right now, one thing I`ve learned through my years is that when people make up their mind on something it is tough to change. People are convinced times are going to be tough, no matter what is going on. They are going to make a depression happen. People in general are not smart enough to see through the "headlines", and with the internet and constant barage of "news" now, it is going to get ugly. I for once agree with Jack, things are looking ugly for the next couple of years. I may lose a bit by waiting for things to get better before I buy again, but after the 2008 crash, I can`t afford another risk.
 

MonteDobson

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Oct 7, 2007
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#10
QUOTE (Jack @ Dec 8 2008, 11:34 PM) Anyway, I work downtown and have a lot of peers in the core that I talk to daily. Has there been mentioning of EnCana`s choice to not split into two entities? Why could that be? There goes a heap of previously forecasted jobs. How about EnCana cancelling their once-legendary Christmas party? How about C.P. Rail eliminating their flex days and laying off 600 union members? There are some pretty jacked-up things happening right now, I assure you. These aren`t "phony", these aren`t "negative", this is what`s going down.

Wow..great statement! Oh yes...that`s right...your "peers" that you coffee with, the reporters, the cab driver, the Starbucks clerk, your boss, the news etc etc...these sources are all VERY reliable and you should listen to them very carefully!! Compare anyone that has their soul retirement in mutual funds and the stock market right now and see how happy they are right now. Many people are now faced with the fact that they are going to have to work for many more years just to breakeven...sounds appealing to me!!

Then listen to any experienced REIN member or real estate investor with a decent sized portfolio to see how they are taking this "recession/depression" or whatever headline you want to post next...and see how upset they are about sitting on a cashflowing asset that will appreciate in value over time. I know I am sleeping very soundly these days verus some counterparts whose networth has absolutely CRASHED over the past 2 months.

Jack...you`re a smart guy but you appear to be getting caught up in all of this crap, just like the masses. Is the economy a wonderful vase of roses right now? Of course not...but the point of the matter is that you should base your investment choices on your individual goals and the future potential of each investment decision, whatever that may be. If it`s not real estate, then that`s great, but quit bashing everyone else who has the potential to become very wealthy over the next 5-7 years while you`re still mulling over last weeks headlines! Either that or share your retirement plan with everyone else so that it may be "critiqued" as such!!
 

Jack

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Aug 22, 2008
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#11
QUOTE Wow..great statement! Oh yes...that`s right...your "peers" that you coffee with, the reporters, the cab driver, the Starbucks clerk, your boss, the news etc etc...these sources are all VERY reliable and you should listen to them very carefully!!
Or
, they`re people who work for these companies; thus, insiders. This kinda stuff is happening. EnCana cancelled their Christmas party. What kind of signal does that give?

QUOTE I know I am sleeping very soundly these days verus some counterparts whose networth has absolutely CRASHED over the past 2 months.

Well, let`s hope the same doesn`t happen to real estate, because it could, and it could happen pretty swiftly.

QUOTE If it`s not real estate, then that`s great, but quit bashing everyone else who has the potential to become very wealthy over the next 5-7 years while you`re still mulling over last weeks headlines! Either that or share your retirement plan with everyone else so that it may be "critiqued" as such!!

My retirement plan absolutely includes real estate, and a lot of it. I understand real estate as an investment, no doubt about it, otherwise I wouldn`t be a REIN member. It can be a great investment, and the big allure of it relative to stocks is that you have a lot more control in a building`s value then you do as a diluted shareholder in a large company who`s per-share worth depends largely on how much institutions and analysts like the individual stock.

All I`m saying is that I`m not convinced that it`s the best time to buy right now, RBC`s report yesterday showed that things are still overvalued in many markets, there`s probably quite a bit of pullback to still be seen in a lot of areas. Remember - the economy is just starting
to show the effects of the financial meltdown, and employment has historically lagged the economic cycle by 6 - 12 months. So this next ride probably ain`t gonna be pretty. That`s all I`m saying. Market timing is not
a "fool`s game".
 

wgraham

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Sep 14, 2007
617
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Canmore
#12
QUOTE (Jack @ Dec 8 2008, 10:34 PM) Go ahead! Buy all the property you want, congratulations. I assure you that I`m not "afraid of tomorrow", I`d just prefer to not be a dumbass and rush out to buy real estate at a time when the probability of it being worth less in a year is very high. I`ve done that once, in January of 2007, and I intend for that to never happen again.

Again Jack, calling those who actually do buy Dumbasses isn`t going to win you any friends.....

QUOTE (Jack @ Dec 8 2008, 10:34 PM) And yes, I can already hear the rebuttal - but even though it`ll go down in `09, things will turn around in [strike]`10! [strike]`11[/strike]! `12[/strike]! `13! - but this was a similar rebuttal to what I was hearing in about 3Q07 when many on these boards were saying that Canada is "recession-proof", that activity will start to pick up again in the spring of `08, etc. Didn`t happen. And even then, do the math. You buy property "A" in Calgary today for $250,000. It`s worth 8% less in December of 2009. This brings its value down to $230,000. Finally, things bounce back in 2010, and you`re given two consecutive years of 7% growth. That brings its value to $263,327 at the end of 2011. Congratulations, you`ve just earned a compounded annual return of 1.7%. And between marketing, administration, management, etc., that`s a 1.7% that you probably worked very hard for. And sure, there`s mortgage paydown over that two years, but that`s wiped out three times over by transaction costs upon the sale.

This is my last effort to help you.....from here on in I, and I hope everyone else, simply ignores you....

I too bought a couple of condos in 2007. I bought them for $240k, interest only prime-0.75 and rent them for $1450. They do alright. So just because you followed the herd don`t think that you couldn`t make money in that year.

I just bought a house the other day for 350k and rent it out for $2600.....the numbers work.

So, if things are going to come down 10% this year why not just price that into your purchase? Lots of motivated people out there right now. Turn the fear into an opportunity! I know that is what I am doing. Get your VTBs....get great pricing...get the closing date that you want....get them to do some renos before you take possession.....get it vacant or tenanted or what ever suits you. When things do turn around I am already priced where I need to be and got my cash flows in the mean time.


QUOTE (Jack @ Dec 8 2008, 10:34 PM) Anyway, I work downtown and have a lot of peers in the core that I talk to daily. Has there been mentioning of EnCana`s choice to not split into two entities? Why could that be? There goes a heap of previously forecasted jobs. How about EnCana cancelling their once-legendary Christmas party? How about C.P. Rail eliminating their flex days and laying off 600 union members? There are some pretty jacked-up things happening right now, I assure you. These aren`t "phony", these aren`t "negative", this is what`s going down.

There are a lot of really bright people on this board Jack.......take the time to listen to those who have good sized portfolios and are making money (that doesn`t meen everyone or even most and most certainly not the cab driver or the starbucks server). You seam to be really good with numbers.....now make the numbers work for you. Figure it out!!

Why is it that Encan cut its Xmas party or CP is now cleaning its shop up.....because they know that now is the time!! They can get away with it right now and so should you.

Good Luck Jack!
 

DaveRhydderch

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Dec 10, 2007
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#13
QUOTE (wgraham @ Dec 9 2008, 09:27 AM) Why is it that Encan cut its Xmas party or CP is now cleaning its shop up.....because they know that now is the time!! They can get away with it right now and so should you.

Good Luck Jack!

So true. The big three car companies are saying how they need a bail out due to the crisis when they have been in trouble for a while... because they build cars no one wants.

I can`t comment on the Encana story, but lastnight a client of mine was telling me how his company cancelled their Christmas party. Not because they`re losing money. Not because of the crisis. But to increase the companies profit, and increase the bonus of the executives...to which he is one. I`m sure they told the employees a different story, but it re-enforced to me how companies are taking advantage of this situation. And so am I.

Incidently, he`s buying real estate right now.
 

EdRenkema

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Sep 18, 2007
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Beamsville, Ontario
#14
QUOTE (Jack @ Dec 9 2008, 05:51 AM) ? Well, let`s hope the same doesn`t happen to real estate, because it could, and it could happen pretty swiftly.



So this next ride probably ain`t gonna be pretty. That`s all I`m saying. Market timing is not a "fool`s game

Sorry, I hit reply to fast.

I think all of the posters on this thread, especially Jack need to take a look at their personal situation and consider how lucky they are. I know I am. Jack you are in a little tough due to a poorly timed and likely poorly researched buy - right?
Look at where you are and what you`re doing each day and ask how bad is it?
Absolutely there are some dire circumstances in the economy today and we need to consider it and be prudent moving forward. I`m in a tough situation myself right now.
However, I have been in a much worse scenario in 89/90 holding a RE assett worth 40% less, brutally negative cashflow, and owing $30K for the down payment, add to that no job, no UIC and it was bad, really bad. I worked part time, coach surfed, ate tuna and potatoes. BUT
I paid every bill on time and discovered how tough I really was. I also trained for and completed my first marathon, started a service business from nothing, travelled the world and learned different languages.
The big mistake I did make was not getting back into RE for 17 years. If I had I certainly wouldn`t be in tough now, and all I had to do was open my mind. I`m struggling with a vacancy that is costing me just under $1000 a month, 100% financed, totally renovated. I won`t lie to you I`m frustrated, it doesn`t help when Jack uses it as part of his agenda as the forum `Rambo`, but that only serves to show his true character. I`ve been in much more critical situations to bother with that fluff.
The point is this lets consider the challenges of today`s economy and move forward because there is positive things happening, I`ve got all VRM mortgages so todays rate change is WELCOME!

If you`re going to be an expert on forecasting and indeed enhancing the doom at least give some solutions and if you can`t do that show how you are helping someone who is really
hurting instead of moaning about how tough it is.
 

vandriani

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REIN Member
Oct 4, 2007
314
0
0
52
Vancouver
#15
Jack,

It appears, by your posts, that you are trying to time a market. So for arguments sake, you decide that Dec 2009 is the lowest point in the market and it is going up from there. You purchase 2 properties, but the market dips another 2%. Are you going to beat yourself up about it? No....well I hope not. As you well know, REIN is not a big proponent of timing markets. Instead, they preach the fundamentals and numbers. So, if you can cash flow enough to cover the market loss, then why not buy now. Remember, this is a long term investments. I get the feeling that you have or do dabble in the stock market and more precisely day trading. I may be wrong but you sure are focusing on all things/reports that cause drastic spikes and drops in a market.

On a side note, I do not mind that you post these reports/articles but maybe we could find a way to post them in their own section similar to what Joe I does. I am a big fan of the "View new post" function and I find these posts cluttering up that view.
 

JoefromTO

0
REIN Member
Oct 1, 2008
268
0
16
52
Toronto, eh!
#16
Good day people. Well, I`m still very new to joining REIN. I joined because I felt that I had finally found the best place for me to learn about real estate investing. I only own 1 investment property, which I bought 4 years ago, and I have learned alot on my own. I have been through some difficult times and have come to realize that in order to be truly "good" at this real estate game, you need to be very good at managing the properties.

This along with other reasons was why I joined REIN. I have to say though, it hasn`t been easy for me to digest the amount of "positive" attitude you see on this site as well as the...forgive me for saying it this way...the "Ra-Ra" that you see at the meetings.

I would like to say that I realize that being positive is what has kept me going. I wanted to sell my property on more than 1 occasion simply because I didn`t know what to do in regards to managing tenants issues. But I didn`t give up and I wasn`t a member of REIN yet either. I knew I needed to be positive...

I see lots of different types of comments all across this websites forums, some negative, but mostly positive, which I like. But I will admit, its not easy for me to just accept the positive attitude without second guessing it.

The fact is, we are seeing the makings of a depression...and its like someone else said I think...if the population thinks were in a recession, that sends them the signal to NOT spend...which causes it or worsens it.

So for someone like me...who has been one of the masses until I joined REIN, am absorbing this positive attitude at a comfortable pace. I`m going through a huge learning curve. Iv`e never had anyone to coach me through any aspect of RE investing, with the exception of alot of people who THINK they know what their talking about. I run a family business that occupies much of my day hours between 6am to 5pm. Then I`m busy with my 2 children (5 and 7), taking them to soccer, gymnastics, swimming, skating, skiing (on the weekends), etc...AND managing my 1 property (which doesn`t require alot of work) AND attending the monthly REIN meetings AND reading all the material provided when I joined REIN.

By the way...I`m sure many if not all of you equally have a very hectic lifestyle. All I`m saying is, I`m taking my time...I`m in no rush.

Now...after reading Jack`s comment, all it does is makes me realize that I`m not the only one who is thinking about the state of everything right now. I`m not sure how this will affect my long term plans/goals, because I haven`t got that far yet to have all that figured out. If I was a member for 4 years and didn`t have a plan yet, I would expect that many of you would be taking me outside to have a little "chat" hehe.

Anyway, I don`t know Jack, Iv`e never met Jack so I therefore have no connections to him in any way,shape or form. But I appreciate what he is concerned about...

Iv`e been to each meeting since joining (2 or 3 only) and I see that many if not most investors will always tell you...if its a good buy, its a good buy. If the numbers work, who cares about anything else. That makes sense, and when I fully learn the system...I`m sure I`ll be speaking that way too.

So I`m not trying to defence Jack, but I have to admit, I`m thinking the same thing...waiting to see what happends.

I will admit one other thing though, I haven`t attended a Quik Start weekend yet, soon to be known as ACRE. There is one coming to Toronto in April and I`m waiting until then to use as my benchmark to be more serious.

Besides, I still don`t know enough about JV`s yet anyway...and I have been saving to buy a second place without needing that. I figure I should be ready by next summer...

Crap...I just made myself accountable! Gulp...

The bottom line is, I appreciate Jack`s comments, even though they may seem gloomy. I don`t want to always hear positive...I want to know the whole picture.

Now please don`t slam me...
 

egambling

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Registered
Sep 9, 2007
9
0
0
#17
Hi Joe

I think you`re wise in taking a wait-and -see position right now. The worst situation to be in as deflation progresses into a depression is holding DEBT. It`s unfortunate that you, and all the other new rein members, are locked into paying the fees for 17 months, when that $200+ could be put to better use.

Elaine
 
#18
QUOTE (egambling @ Dec 9 2008, 12:44 PM)
I think you're wise in taking a wait-and -see position right now. The worst situation to be in as deflation progresses into a depression is holding DEBT. It's unfortunate that you, and all the other new rein members, are locked into paying the fees for 17 months, when that $200+ could be put to better use.


the worst situation in a period that is INFLATIONARY is to be in cash .... and to see your cash deteriorate in value while holding nothing that appreciates in value at least with inflation, with monthly income, such as positive cash-flow real estate in growth markets !



Debt for depreciating assets (or at least assets with no supporting income to carry the debt load) like car loans or even your own home should be distinguished from debt that is used to buy Appreciating assets with income.



Show me a better investment class .. and I will listen with both ears wide open !
 
Jan 13, 2008
287
0
0
45
Edmonton
#19
Let us new REIN members speak for ourselves please!



Other things $200 can buy:



1)20 packs of cigarettes

2)10 bottles of cheap wine

3) a yearly subscription to "The Sky is Falling" newspaper

4) three tanks of gas for a half ton truck

5) one day of skiing

6) dinner and a movie for 4



Without that membership a lot of people (myself included) might have already forgotten about this whole Real Estate thing. Rather, we're educating ourselves daily through the resources REIN provides, and more importantly being nudged to take action.



No regrets here!








QUOTE (egambling @ Dec 9 2008, 12:44 PM)
Hi Joe



I think you're wise in taking a wait-and -see position right now. The worst situation to be in as deflation progresses into a depression is holding DEBT. It's unfortunate that you, and all the other new rein members, are locked into paying the fees for 17 months, when that $200+ could be put to better use.



Elaine
 

JoefromTO

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REIN Member
Oct 1, 2008
268
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16
52
Toronto, eh!
#20
QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Dec 9 2008, 03:08 PM) the worst situation in a period that is INFLATIONARY is to be in cash .... and to see your cash deteriorate in value while holding nothing that appreciates in value at least with inflation, with monthly income, such as positive cash-flow real estate in growth markets !Debt for depreciating assets like car loans or even your own home should be distinguished from debt that is used to buy Appreciating assets with income.

Show me a better investment class .. and I will listen with both ears wide open !


Agreed. In fact, I look at the $200 per month like an investment as well. When you want to go to University, you need to pay first, then they teach you. When you want to go on a trip, you have to pay then take the trip...I`m investing in myself and a company that I beleive will more than provide me with the knowledge to be truly successful at real estate investing.

It`s the best way for me to surround myself with like minded people...like Thomas Beyer...the guy never misses a post lol.

My issue is that I`m still learning the system and need to figure out my plan, so to speak.