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Market correction of 20%

AdamBlackmore

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An article from the Star yesterday. (not one for your JV presentations!)

Bay St. guru David Rosenberg does not seem to think we are on very stable ground!

“It would not be out of the realm to see a correction, using nationwide average home prices as the benchmark, of at least 20 per cent.”

"Nationwide" numbers are relevant to no one. Interesting comparison calling our situation now similar to the States was, esp with our relatively conservative lending practices. Seems another case of looking for a shock value headline.

http://www.yourhome.ca/homes/realestate/ar...-says-economist
 

Cargren

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I may be wrong (it has been known to happen before) but he has a few "facts" wrong. He states "As of Monday, the federal government has firmed up mortgage regulations, including clamping down on 40-year amortizations,". The 40 yr amort was done away with a while back not April 19 as he states.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Cargren @ Apr 26 2010, 03:45 PM) I may be wrong (it has been known to happen before) but he has a few "facts" wrong. He states "As of Monday, the federal government has firmed up mortgage regulations, including clamping down on 40-year amortizations,". The 40 yr amort was done away with a while back not April 19 as he states.

yes he has but he has some vaild points such as 200 basis point prime rate increase (VERY LIKELY I agree here) and bubbly price appreciation in hot condo markets like Vancouver ..

So while I agree that SOME properties, namely the frothy condos, will possibly drop 20% in value it does not mean that all rental properties (i.e. that small 220K house you just bought and rent .. or that used 125K 2BR condo) will drop 20% too !
 

Rickson9

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From my limited investing experience, when everybody and their uncle, taxi drivers, hair dressers, and waiters all talk about a crash, history proves them wrong. Vice versa. In this case, everybody AND the economists of the BoC and the major banks are talkinga bout a downturn, so I`m actually worried even less...
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Rickson9 @ Apr 26 2010, 08:58 PM) From my limited investing experience, when everybody and their uncle, taxi drivers, hair dressers, and waiters all talk about a crash, history proves them wrong. Vice versa. In this case, everybody AND the economists of the BoC and the major banks are talking about a downturn, so I`m actually worried even less...
don`t be so arrogant .. as indeed the economy was propped up in 2009 with super low interest rates .. and any new construction like in Vancouver or downtown Toronto or here in Canmore has a major economic impact .. take that away and economy tanks (like here in Canmore or in Vancouver or Kelowna) and prices drop ..

However, in many markets, prices have corrected in 2009 already, like Kelowna or Canmore or Edmonton .. and I think a further 20% down is unlikely ..
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Apr 27 2010, 09:20 AM) don`t be so arrogant .. as indeed the economy was propped up in 2009 with super low interest rates .. and any new construction like in Vancouver or downtown Toronto or here in Canmore has a major economic impact .. take that away and economy tanks (like here in Canmore or in Vancouver or Kelowna) and prices drop ..

However, in many markets, prices have corrected in 2009 already, like Kelowna or Canmore or Edmonton .. and I think a further 20% down is unlikely ..

The issue is that Canada`s housing market has many segments and those segments can be further subdivided into many areas. Nobody is going to be an expert in all of those different local market segments.

It sounds to me, and it really is `sound` because I don`t invest in many of these markets, that condominium complexes and other real estate market segments are `frothy` in areas around Vancouver and Toronto where a large portion of our Canadian population lives. These two (and maybe also include Montreal and Ottawa) comprise a large portion of what we call euphemistically the `Canadian Real Estate Market`.

But other markets such as luxury condominiums in Canmore are still severely depressed although possibly stabilizing. Calgary`s condominium market is also hard hit and may fall even a bit more over the coming months, while in Edmonton things appear to turn around for the better.

Regarding the statemement that the masses are always wrong, that is incorrect. Even the masses may see the obvious. The difficulty with contrarian investing is that you don`t go against the masses out of principle or by definition. It is more about anticipating the unexpected which may prove to be the most profitable.

Yes, the market may be `frothy` in the opinion of many, but that does not mean the obvious crash is nearby. The market may go up a bit longer, it may go sideways for a long time instead of crashing or... certain local market segments may crash while others will do fine or even excellent. In fact, as a contrarian you may want to say, "Things will likely be different than the masses expect, the question remains where will the most profitable opportunities occur?" That is something not even the contrarians can answer with certainty.

Reality is that the investor should be aware of trends, because it may help identify opportunities, but the true key point is to buy assets at the right price with enough price cushion and cash flow to get by the rough spots. Something that is again a lot more difficult to do than say.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Apr 27 2010, 10:26 AM) .. Canada`s housing market has many segments and those segments can be further subdivided into many areas. ..
well said Godfried !

Keep in mind that investors do not buy "the market" but a SPECIFIC piece of real estate (say a townhouse with 3 BRs, up to $185,000) in a VERY NARROW market segment (say NE Edmonton, between XX and YY Street and AA and BB Avenue) .. and that while "the market goes down 5%" NE Edmonton might be flat but 3BR townhouses between XX and YY Street and AA and BB Avenue might be up 6%)
 

RedlineBrett

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Apr 27 2010, 12:17 PM) well said Godfried !

Keep in mind that investors do not buy "the market" but a SPECIFIC piece of real estate (say a townhouse with 3 BRs, up to $185,000) in a VERY NARROW market segment (say NE Edmonton, between XX and YY Street and AA and BB Avenue) .. and that while "the market goes down 5%" NE Edmonton might be flat but 3BR townhouses between XX and YY Street and AA and BB Avenue might be up 6%)

But Thomas... that perfectly sound logic is boring and won`t sell any newspapers or raise the profile of the `expert` offering his opinion! Can`t print that!
 

TheVancouverMarket

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QUOTE (AdamBlackmore @ Apr 25 2010, 08:08 AM) An article from the Star yesterday. (not one for your JV presentations!)http://www.yourhome.ca/homes/realestate/ar...-says-economist
Bay St. guru David Rosenberg does not seem to think we are on very stable ground!

"It would not be out of the realm to see a correction, using nationwide average home prices as the benchmark, of at least 20 per cent."

"Nationwide" numbers are relevant to no one. Interesting comparison calling our situation now similar to the States was, esp with our relatively conservative lending practices. Seems another case of looking for a shock value headline.

http://www.yourhome.ca/homes/realestate/ar...-says-economist


The Vancouver market is looking a bit wobbly right now....a surge in new listings and what seems like a crimping of demand with the new mortgage rules and rate rises. Could be an interesting summer.

By the way, an excellent paper for you `bubbleheads` (no offence intended !) is Alexandre Pestov`s "Elusive Canadian Housing Bubble" paper he wrote in February 2010 at the Schulich School of Business. It`s an interesting read...
 

luckyluciano

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The MASSES are the ones buying not the ones predicting the crash. Prices have definitely inflated/supported themselves on cheap credit and high debt levels. Going forward is when cash and just as important, equity are king and queen. For the last few years it was hard to tell the difference between a true millionaire and everyone else because of cheap money.
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (luckyluciano @ Apr 28 2010, 06:41 AM) For the last few years it was hard to tell the difference between a true millionaire and everyone else because of cheap money.

I think it has always been difficult. At least it is for me.
 

bizaro86

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I read a great quote last week.

The plural of `anecdote` is not `data.`

Ultimately, opinions are what they are, everyone has one. It makes sense to buy well thought out real estate at under-market prices with a view to cash flow. If the owner`s have staying power, that will work in the long term. The next six months are not a relevant investment time horizon, especially when it comes to an investment with high switching costs like real estate.

Michael
 
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