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All We`ve Seen is the Tip of the Economic Iceberg

Jack

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-Five prominent economists who correctly predicted the 2008 world economic meltdown say the crisis is only going to get worse. "Beware the happy talk from those who say we are `turning the corner,` " writes Dean Baker of the Washington, DC-based Center for Economic Research. "Ignore the daily ups and downs of the market and tighten your belts. This is going to hurt." Canada wasn`t spared in the dire prognostications Monday in the latest online edition of Foreign Policy magazine. New York University economist Nouriel Roubini said the crisis is still in its early stages. "As the US economy shrinks, the entire global economy will go into recession. In Europe, Canada, Japan and the other advanced economies, it will be severe," according to Roubini. "Nor will emerging-market economies -- linked to the developed world by trade in goods, finance, and currency,- escape real pain." Roubini predicted the US recession will last at least two years and could drag on for a decade. He said hedge funds are being forced to sell their assets at fire-sale prices while some financial institutions will go bust, and some governments in emerging economies could default on their debt. Morgan Stanley Asia chairman Stephen Roach said Asian economies will suffer from being overly dependent on exports to the US and on their own undervalued currencies. "A similar verdict is likely for the commodity-producing regions of the world, not just the oil-dependent Middle East, but also the resource-intensive economies of Australia, Canada, Brazil, Russia and Africa," Roach writes. "As global growth slows, so does the demand for economically sensitive commodities, resulting in a sharp correction in the bubble-distorted commodity prices and growth rates of the major commodity producers."

-Yale University economist Robert Shiller was one of several who cited the example of Japan. "History tells us there is some precedent for a protracted, weak housing market
. After the last housing boom in the United States peaked in 1989, it took a typical city five years to hit bottom
,"
he writes. "This time, prices have only been going down for two years. We might look with caution to Japan, where urban land prices fell for 15 consecutive years, from 1991 to 2006."
The least pessimistic is International Economy magazine editor David Smick, who predicts that US president-elect Barack Obama`s first budget deficit will surpass US$1.5 trillion as he faces demands to stimulate the economy and bail out state governments, private pension funds and other ailing institutions. Internationally, Smick said export-dependent developing countries, and the western banks that financed their growth, are particularly vulnerable
. "If too many of these emerging markets go down, the [International Monetary Fund] lacks the necessary resources to mount rescue operations," writes Smick. "To put things in perspective, Austrian banks have emerging-market financial exposure exceeding $290B. Austria`s GDP is only $370B." Smick`s optimism emanates from the oceans of cash sitting on the world economy`s sidelines, including $6 trillion in money market funds alone. "The faster Obama and his global counterparts can fashion credible financial reforms that enhance transparency while preserving capital and trade flows, the sooner that sidelined capital will re-engage," he writes. "In the end, markets crave certainty -- in this case, certainty that our leaders have a credible game plan. That plan is not yet in place."


(Vancouver Sun 090106)
 

mcgregok

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 6 2009, 12:34 PM) -Five prominent economists who correctly predicted the 2008 world economic meltdown say the crisis is only going to get worse. "Beware

(Vancouver Sun 090106)


This is all old news. Harry Dent has been telling all for years. Dow between 4000-5000. No place to hide your $$ he said except t bills. Oh my gosh ! What should one do? Do you notice how none of these prominent economist never tell you what to do to handle your money and your assets until after the fact. They should have told people years ago. People already know there is a crises they need to know when to start investing.
 

Thomas Beyer

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note this sentence here:

Smick`s optimism emanates from the oceans of cash sitting on the world economy`s sidelines, including $6 trillion in money market funds alone.

Plus: gas @ $2 a gallon vs. $4 is a stimulus of $300 B alone in the US in 2009 vs. 2008 !!

Stocks are up 20% from November low .. and many commodity stocks over 50% already !

Oil is at $48 and climbing .. up 30% from its low !

I did not notice even a recession this Christmas season in Calgary or Edmonton ..

many an economist fears for his job .. and must get his name out .. and the gloomier the better .. headlines sell !!

We have written 12 offers the last 2 months .. and not a motivated (apartment building) seller in sight in W-Canada !!! Even for a crappo in Edmonton with a 65% vacancy they want 80/door ..


This is NOT a depression .. just a recession .. deeper and longer in the US .. and debt is being deflated by balance sheet stimulus ..
 

Jack

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QUOTE This is NOT a depression .. just a recession .. deeper and longer in the US ..

All signs point to us being in a depression.

A recession is a normal phase of the business cycle, defined by two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth. If we were merely in a recession, things will have started to kick back already. We`re seeing record or near-record low consumer confidence levels, auto sales, manufacturing orders, everything. The velocity of the drop in real estate and the major stock indices has been tremendous, we`re seeing unprecedented bailout/"stimulus" packages, we`re seeing a Federal funds rate at 0%, we`re seeing jobs being lost at depressionary rates, etc.

On Harry Dent - he`s certainly not the only guy who`s seen this coming. Robert Kiyosaki wrote a great book called Rich Dad`s Prophecy, which basically talks about the U.S.`s alarming debt levels and how Medicare and Social Security will essentially bankrupt the entire country as the baby-boomers continue to age. Robert Prechter also wrote an excellent book in 2002 called Conquer the Crash, and his studies involving the Elliott Wave principle have also proven to being quite accurate.

Back to the article above, the thing to consider most, for real estate investors, anyway, is the fact that, historically, it took five years
for the typical city in the U.S. to hit their bottom, from a real estate values perspective, after their last major housing boom in 1989. This is pretty clearly something to consider for us as investors.
 

mcgregok

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 6 2009, 07:24 PM) All signs point to us being in a depression.

This is pretty clearly something to consider for us as investors.


So Jack! Don`t you think everyone is considering the situation? Many hard core investors have been sitting on the sidelines since early to mid 2006 with cash waiting for another oportunity to start buying again. My personal view (which is not shared by many) is to wait until my indicators show an uptrend. So here I sit! The remaining properties I still own have a lot of cash flow .I made a decision not to sell several years ago reguardless of what happened to the market since my cash flow will cover most losses I may incure plus the fact I am a very long term investor 5 plus years. There is really not to much to think about. Either you believe in buying now or you don`t. If you buy now applying a good cash flow rule your property will be paid off by the renters reguardless if it looses 25% or 50%. So how much risk do you want take? If you don`t like risk buy in 5 years. Easy discission!
 

Jack

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QUOTE Jack - Won`t inflation lift boats? Your thoughts?

Two things drive inflation: demand and costs.

I don`t see demand being there. I don`t see many people rushing out to go buy real estate right now. It`s great to buy when there`s blood on the streets, yes, but, in today`s conditions, it`s more like Chernobyl toxicity on the streets; there`s a lot of risk.

So, will costs push inflation? Maybe. What could happen is general consolidation of industry, so the cash-strapped businesses could be bought-out by those with stronger balance sheets. This would mean that there`s less suppliers as a whole, which could mean that prices will go up. Who knows.

I don`t really see 2009 as being all that inflationary, even with all these stimulus packages in place. Lord knows the quantitative easing that they`ve done since early 2008 hasn`t been working. How many rate cuts were there last year? And how exactly did they fare in stimulating the economy? Right.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 6 2009, 09:31 PM) Two things drive inflation: demand and costs.

I don`t see demand being there. ..
sure, huge demand for MONEY .. by governments and corporations !

and HUGE SUPPLY by governments .. aka INFLATION .. money supply is up 17% Year-over-Year in the US .. and with the US and Canadian and other governments ability to borrow money at 0% via T-Bills or printing press, cost of money are way down while supply and demand are high !!

AKA: INFLATION IS COMING once these stimulus packages are kicking in ..
 

CalvinPeters

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 6 2009, 09:31 PM) I don`t see demand being there. I don`t see many people rushing out to go buy real estate right now. It`s great to buy when there`s blood on the streets, yes, but, in today`s conditions, it`s more like Chernobyl toxicity on the streets; there`s a lot of risk.

...so.....you build that risk into your offer. I am currently seeing oporrtunities out here (Calgary) that are nothing less than unbelievable. That same fear is providing opportunities for buyers like crazy. I am working deals today that are at 2005 prices. It is like Christmas morning...everyday. It all just depends on your perspective. Get some crazy offers in, you might be surprised what happens...positive cashflow, indeed.

Just my thoughts, worth what you paid for them! ($0.00!!!!) Cheers.
 

Jack

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QUOTE and HUGE SUPPLY by governments .. aka INFLATION .. money supply is up 17% Year-over-Year in the US .. and with the US and Canadian and other governments ability to borrow money at 0% via T-Bills or printing press, cost of money are way down while supply and demand are high !!

BUT
, people need to be willing to spend this money, which, as consumer confidence indices will tell you, isn`t the case. The U.S. has been doing this for a year, with unsuccessful results. 25 basis-point cut here, 50 basis-point cut there...nothing.

Until there`s more confidence amongst businesses & consumers, there won`t be much monetary circulation in the economy, meaning that inflation won`t be happening unless and until that happens.

As for when confidence increases, that`s the great unknown.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 7 2009, 10:59 AM) As for when confidence increases, that`s the great unknown.
true .. but with $6T in money markets .. and stock market up 20% since Nov. 2008 and 50% for many resource firms, + tax cuts + government stimuli + real estate price drops stopping at some point .. it will come ...
 

GarthChapman

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 7 2009, 10:59 AM) BUT, people need to be willing to spend this money, which, as consumer confidence indices will tell you, isn`t the case. The U.S. has been doing this for a year, with unsuccessful results. 25 basis-point cut here, 50 basis-point cut there...nothing. Until there`s more confidence amongst businesses & consumers, there won`t be much monetary circulation in the economy, meaning that inflation won`t be happening unless and until that happens. As for when confidence increases, that`s the great unknown.

Jack
- well said; you are absolutely right about confidence being required for consumer spending to be re-started. But I am confused about why you think inflation won`t happen because of the increase in the money supply. Whether we hoard it or spend it is still in circulation. I think I understand that inflation is a reduction of a currency`s value
(buying power) created by printing more of it, and that increasing prices are a symptom of inflation
and not the cause of it.

Thomas-
I`d be interested to read your thoughts on what impacts this inflation will have on property values, rents, wages, etc. And your rational as to why it will be so. I too believe a round of inflation is coming our way, and I hope the central Banks will not fight it - we need this inflation to reduced the relative size of our debt - Government debt, Business debt and Consumer debt.
 

Jack

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QUOTE (GarthChapman @ Jan 7 2009, 12:36 PM) Jack- well said; you are absolutely right about confidence being required for consumer spending to be re-started. But I am confused about why you think inflation won`t happen because of the increase in the money supply. Whether we hoard it or spend it is still in circulation. I think I understand that inflation is a reduction of a currency`s value (buying power) created by printing more of it, and that increasing prices are a symptom of inflation and not the cause of it.

It`s not in circulation if it`s being hoarded. Money is circulating when it`s being spent. Savings are a leakage to the economy.

Increasing prices can also be the cause of inflation. Supply-shock inflation occurs when, due to low supply of materials, labour, whatever, the price of the output goes up (see the oilsands in `06 - `07). When wages or other input costs are driven up by short supply, that cost is passed on to the consumer, always.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (GarthChapman @ Jan 7 2009, 12:36 PM) Thomas- I`d be interested to read your thoughts on what impacts this inflation will have on property values, rents, wages, etc. And your rational as to why it will be so. I too believe a round of inflation is coming our way, and I hope the central Banks will not fight it - we need this inflation to reduced the relative size of our debt - Government debt, Business debt and Consumer debt.
As long as we live in democracies, with elected officials that have to respond to "the people" stating "bail me out", "build me a new hospital", "provide me with cheap child care", "lift my RRSP savings, i.e. the stock market", "don`t let the car industry fail" .. we spend and spend .. and thus, to make the pain easier we print more money to deflate the debt. Money supply is up hugely .. and they stopped publishing it .. estimates are 17% to much much higher like 50%+ in 2008 over 2007 ..

So, this means that either interest rates will rise hugely .. or the US dollar will plummet .. and since high interest rates kill the economy the US dollar will slide ..

This is the main reason why we put our US purchases ON HOLD for the time being ..

However, since many other nations are doing the same .. the US dollar might not get hammered quite as much relative to teh Euro or Yen or Swiss Franc or ... but money relative to REAL assets will get less an less valued .. so things REAL will go up: gold, real estate, oil, nickel, uranium, ... and that is called inflation !

Here`s an excerpt from a newsletter I received today .. and while I do not know if it is true .. let`s assume it is ..

In a single 30-day span, investors yanked $127 billion from U.S. stock and bond mutual funds, seeking the "safety of Treasuries and cash," according to the Investment Company Institute.

But the rush to cash didn`t stop there. Even with yields sinking below the S&P 500, the demand for Treasuries soared... all helping to drive the greenback up 21% in just five months.

All this has created what could be the biggest bubble in the financial world today... the bubble in the U.S. dollar! And now, that bubble is strained to the breaking point... even as investors the world over huddle in cash. It`s a disaster just waiting to happen... waiting for that "tipping point" event to set off the fireworks.

Consider...

In addition to irrational global demand for the U.S. dollar, the Fed is expanding our monetary base by more than $11 billion a day since September, to nearly $1.5 trillion. That`s an increase of 79.02% since October of 2007
.

Hence, buy anything REAL that you can hold .. gold has no value as it has no income .. it just looks pretty .. so buy a gold producer perhaps or a nickel producer or a piece of real estate that has enough income to cover its cost !!

Note the word REAL in real estate !
 

JordanRich

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QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Jan 7 2009, 04:51 PM) As long as we live in democracies, with elected officials that have to respond to "the people" stating "bail me out", "build me a new hospital", "provide me with cheap child care", "lift my RRSP savings, i.e. the stock market", "don`t let the car industry fail" .. we spend and spend .. and thus, to make the pain easier we print more money to deflate the debt. Money supply is up hugely .. and they stopped publishing it .. estimates are 17% to much much higher like 50%+ in 2008 over 2007 ..
So, this means that either interest rates will rise hugely .. or the US dollar will plummet .. and since high interest rates kill the economy the US dollar will slide ..

This is the main reason why we put our US purchases ON HOLD for the time being ..

However, since many other nations are doing the same .. the US dollar might not get hammered quite as much relative to teh Euro or Yen or Swiss Franc or ... but money relative to REAL assets will get less an less valued .. so things REAL will go up: gold, real estate, oil, nickel, uranium, ... and that is called inflation !

Here`s an excerpt from a newsletter I received today .. and while I do not know if it is true .. let`s assume it is ..

In a single 30-day span, investors yanked $127 billion from U.S. stock and bond mutual funds, seeking the "safety of Treasuries and cash," according to the Investment Company Institute.

But the rush to cash didn`t stop there. Even with yields sinking below the S&P 500, the demand for Treasuries soared... all helping to drive the greenback up 21% in just five months.

All this has created what could be the biggest bubble in the financial world today... the bubble in the U.S. dollar! And now, that bubble is strained to the breaking point... even as investors the world over huddle in cash. It`s a disaster just waiting to happen... waiting for that "tipping point" event to set off the fireworks.

Consider...

In addition to irrational global demand for the U.S. dollar, the Fed is expanding our monetary base by more than $11 billion a day since September, to nearly $1.5 trillion. That`s an increase of 79.02% since October of 2007
.

Hence, buy anything REAL that you can hold .. gold has no value as it has no income .. it just looks pretty .. so buy a gold producer perhaps or a nickel producer or a piece of real estate that has enough income to cover its cost !!

Note the word REAL in real estate !

Question, if you buy a property today at the current interest rates and it cash flows but five years from now rates have gone up 3-4 points does this not totally erode your cash flow? do rents go up with interest rates? what happened in the 80`s when rates were 18%, did people get killed in real estate? thanks.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (JordanRich @ Jan 7 2009, 03:07 PM)
Question, if you buy a property today at the current interest rates and it cash flows but five years from now rates have gone up 3-4 points does this not totally erode your cash flow? do rents go up with interest rates? what happened in the 80's when rates were 18%, did people get killed in real estate? thanks.


always a possibility .. but remote as governments have decided to rather print more money and supply more, i.e. drive its cost down .. when supply is tight money is expensive ..



there are few guarantees. Here are a few:

a) in 10 years, you will be 10 years older, or dead

b) your $ today will be worth far less in 10 years, i..e that same $ buys less beer, less oil, less ice cream and less real estate

c) there will always be taxes

d) there will always be winners and losers in any market

e) some people will benefit as others suffer, in any country, in any economy

f) most people prefer a nice life over a miserable one, especially if they have tasted the sweet life for a while or have seen it, and thus buy stuff if they can (i.e. Asia, Africa, S-America .. they all want fridges, cars, A/C, condos, ..) thus creating more demand on limited resources like nickel, oil, water, land, clean air ...
 

Jack

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QUOTE (JordanRich @ Jan 7 2009, 03:07 PM) Question, if you buy a property today at the current interest rates and it cash flows but five years from now rates have gone up 3-4 points does this not totally erode your cash flow? do rents go up with interest rates? what happened in the 80`s when rates were 18%, did people get killed in real estate? thanks.
That`s an excellent question. As always, it depends on the numbers; rental revenues - PIT, management, and whatever else.

The obvious hedge against all of this is going with a reasonably low fixed
mortgage rate. I`ve never understood why people are OK with exposing themselves to interest rate risk to save a few dollars per month. Yes, I`m aware that VRM`s have proven to be lower historically. Yes, I`m aware that a few dollars per month can add up pretty quickly. This being said, look at the volatility-era that we`re living in. Interest rates could change quickly, and they could change sharply.

IMO, it`s just an unnecessary risk that the investor needn`t expose themselves to when a reasonably low fixed rate is easily available.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 7 2009, 06:55 PM)
... Yes, I'm aware that VRM's have proven to be lower historically. Yes, I'm aware that a few dollars per month can add up pretty quickly. ...


why pay less ?
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 7 2009, 02:48 PM) It`s not in circulation if it`s being hoarded.
Hence the money supply shock .. if $6T is sitting in money market fund .. plus a few more $100`s of billion (of bailout money) on banks balance sheets .. sooner or later people (or banks) will realize that a 1% or 2% interest bonus isn`t all that great .. and will invest it in mortgages, bonds, equity, real estate, stocks .. or spend it !!

This is EXACTLY what the US (and many other nation`s) government is doing right now: flush out the $s into the economy .. thus force real estate values up or at least flat and spending or investing by massively devaluing the $ !!!
 
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