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Another question regarding cash flow, 50% rule, etc

jgg123

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Hi everyone, I just discovered this site a few days ago and have been doing a lot of reading and have learned a LOT. My question is regarding the 50% rule - my understanding is that it is a fairly conservative ratio of operating expenses to rent. Some properties may run at less and some may run higher than 50%.Operating expenses being :

Property taxes
Maintenance
Vacancy
Property management
Advertising, etc.
Capital expenditures.

The operating expenses do not take into account purchase price or mortgage rates, so is this really an accurate tool to use for cash flow?

For example, say there are two similar properties, in two different markets.

Property 1 - 1000 sq ft bungalow, 30 years old, small town

Purchase price $100,000
Rent @ 10% - $10,000 per year
Taxes @ 1% - $1000 per year
Insurance @ 3% - $300 per year
Vacancy @ 8% - $800 per year

Remainder for 50% rule on Capital costs, property management, maintenance etc = $5000-1000-300-800=$2900


Property 2 - 1000 sq ft bungalow, 30 years old, downtown major center

Purchase Price - $500,000
Rent @ 10% - $50,000 per year
Taxes @ 1% - $5,000 per year
Insurance @ 3% - $1500 per year
Vacancy @ 8% - $4000 per year

Remainder for 50% rule on capital costs, property management, maintenance etc = $25,000-5000-1500-4000=$14,500

Capital costs, property management, maintenance etc should be similar for the two properties, should it not? I realize that if you`re in an area with higher property values labor may be higher but not that much higher....right?

I don`t know if there`s such a thing as a property that meets the 50% rule right now...prices would have to drop to pre 2006 levels and rents would have to stay at the current levels for this to occur.

Thoughts?
 

Thomas Beyer

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never confuse a rule of thumb with the real world .. it is an estimate !

In most cases in big cities the price to rent ratio is MUCH higher .. i.e. you will NOT be able to rent that house for $500,000 for $4000/month .. but maybe for $2000 ! Hence: stick with smaller cities and old/uglier houses first ..

utilities are paid sometimes by tenants .. then the cost to you is lower than 50% .. but if the boiler breaks in year 3 and you`re out $8000 then you are higher than 50% that year !

and yes, many areas will fall to pre-2006 (or pre-2004) price levels .. so be careful when and where you buy !
 

jgg123

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QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Aug 19 2008, 07:30 PM) never confuse a rule of thumb with the real world .. it is an estimate !

In most cases in big cities the price to rent ratio is MUCH higher .. i.e. you will NOT be able to rent that house for $500,000 for $4000/month .. but maybe for $2000 ! Hence: stick with smaller cities and old/uglier houses first ..

utilities are paid sometimes by tenants .. then the cost to you is lower than 50% .. but if the boiler breaks in year 3 and you`re out $8000 then you are higher than 50% that year !

and yes, many areas will fall to pre-2006 (or pre-2004) price levels .. so be careful when and where you buy !

Thank you Thomas, it`s what I thought...just needed verification. I`m so anxious to buy something but the *numbers* don`t really work so maybe that means something
style_emoticons
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (jgg123 @ Aug 19 2008, 08:07 PM) Thank you Thomas, it`s what I thought...just needed verification. I`m so anxious to buy something but the *numbers* don`t really work so maybe that means something
style_emoticons

keep looking .. stick with smaller properties or older/uglier ones in smaller towns .. and you WILL be successful !
 

GSI

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QUOTE (jgg123 @ Aug 19 2008, 04:12 PM) Hi everyone, I just discovered this site a few days ago and have been doing a lot of reading and have learned a LOT. My question is regarding the 50% rule - my understanding is that it is a fairly conservative ratio of operating expenses to rent. Some properties may run at less and some may run higher than 50%.



Operating expenses being :



Property taxes

Maintenance

Vacancy

Property management

Advertising, etc.

Capital expenditures.



The operating expenses do not take into account purchase price or mortgage rates, so is this really an accurate tool to use for cash flow?



For example, say there are two similar properties, in two different markets.



Property 1 - 1000 sq ft bungalow, 30 years old, small town



Purchase price $100,000

Rent @ 10% - $10,000 per year

Taxes @ 1% - $1000 per year

Insurance @ 3% - $300 per year

Vacancy @ 8% - $800 per year



Remainder for 50% rule on Capital costs, property management, maintenance etc = $5000-1000-300-800=$2900




Property 2 - 1000 sq ft bungalow, 30 years old, downtown major center



Purchase Price - $500,000

Rent @ 10% - $50,000 per year

Taxes @ 1% - $5,000 per year

Insurance @ 3% - $1500 per year

Vacancy @ 8% - $4000 per year



Remainder for 50% rule on capital costs, property management, maintenance etc = $25,000-5000-1500-4000=$14,500



Capital costs, property management, maintenance etc should be similar for the two properties, should it not? I realize that if you're in an area with higher property values labor may be higher but not that much higher....right?



I don't know if there's such a thing as a property that meets the 50% rule right now...prices would have to drop to pre 2006 levels and rents would have to stay at the current levels for this to occur.



Thoughts?




Hi Jgg,



Please also see my earlier reply to your related question here:



http://myreinspace.com/search/public_forums/Real_Estate_Discussion/62-6628-33678-Cash_Flow_and_Expenses.html#33678



Thanks!
 

mflynn

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You can still make the numbers work in Hamilton! I have ten properties in Hamilton; eight of them are cash flow positive, one has a second mortgage which we will be getting rid of this week and will then be cash flow positve and we get possession of the tenth one on September 4.

Cheers

Mary
 

invst4profit

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When calculating your cash flow it should be based on 100% financing. Otherwise you are not including lost income on money that could otherwise be invested. Personally if I do not have positive cash flow at 100% financing then I simply do not have positive cash flow.
Paying down or paying off a mortgage does not effect bottom line profits.
All too often new investors believe they can "force" positive positive cash flow by making a large down payment when really what they are doing is borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.
 
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