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Canadian housing market headed for a crash!

preston

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Hi all, Just joined so sorry if the initial post is all doom and gloom ! I currently live in the UK where we are in the middle of the largest property market crash of all time down 25% so far and expecting further 10-20% falls next year. I am moving to Canada next year(Toronto) and as a seasoned UK investor have been doing some ground work as to where and when to invest over there. Currently looks like the market is going from strength to strength in the Toronto area where I will be based however I am coming across more and more articles predicting a market crash one of which I have attached. I would really appreciate your thoughts on the article.


Why Canada`s Housing Bubble Will Burst

`The largest sub-prime lender in the world is now the Canadian government.`

By Murray Dobbin, 22 Oct 2009, TheTyee.ca



What do the mid-recession housing boom and the Harper Conservatives` rise in the polls have in common? Answer: the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation`s massive sub-prime mortgage scheme that is keeping up the appearance of an economic recovery. Reading the newspapers these days, you have to wonder whether Canada was on another planet when the global credit crisis hit. House prices have actually increased in some provinces and now there is a shortage of houses for sale in southern Ontario. Credit is flowing everywhere.

But what few Canadians realize is that the housing market has avoided collapse (prices are down 32 per cent in the U.S.) because the Harper Conservatives directed the CMHC to change the mortgage rules to effectively make the Canadian government the biggest sub-prime lender in the world. What`s almost as alarming as this reckless policy is that no one in the financial media is talking about it, even though everyone knows the facts. I was alerted to the scandal by David Lepoidevin, a financial advisor with National Bank Financial, in a warning letter to his clients.

The facts are that over 90 per cent of existing mortgages in Canada are "securitized." That is the practice of pooling mortgages (or other assets) and then issuing new securities backed by the pool -- MBSs, or Mortgage Backed Securities. That`s what happened with the sub-prime mortgages in the U.S. which (because the whole pool was so diversified) received triple-A ratings by the rating agencies. Losses around the world amounted to hundred of billions of dollars

Credit is still tight in the U.S. because no private investor has the stomach for such risky MBSs. That`s because those losses were private and not back-stopped by any government. In Canada, mortgages have been securitized for years. The Canadian-issued securitizations are called National Housing Act, Mortgage-Backed Securities. Unlike the failed U.S. pools, says Lepoidevin, "In order to find buyers for securitized mortgage pools, the Government of Canada has put guarantees on them" by directing CMHC to guarantee all Canadian mortgages.

Propping up the real estate market


So long as borrowing requirements were tight, the percentage of loans that were securitized remained modest. But in 2007 the Harper government allowed the CMHC to dramatically change its rules: it dropped the down payment requirement to zero per cent and extended the amortization period to 40 years. In light of the mortgage meltdown in the U.S., Finance Minister Flaherty moderated those rules in August 2008 (it`s now five per cent down and 35 years). But these are still relatively very loose requirements and securitization has taken off.



By the end of 2007 there were $138 billion in NHA securitized pools outstanding and guaranteed by CMHC --17.8 per cent of all outstanding mortgages. By June 30, 2009, that figure was $290 billion, a figure Lepoidevin says, "exceeds the total value of mortgages offered by CMHC in its 57 years of existence!" CMHC`s stated goal was to guarantee $340 billion by the end of this year and is on track to reach $500 billion by the end of 2010. Total mortgage credit in Canada will grow by 12-14 per cent of GDP in 2009. In an effort to prop up the real estate market in 2008 (when affordability nosedived), the Harper government directed the CMHC to approve as many high-risk borrowers as possible and to keep credit flowing. CMHC described these risky loans as "high ratio homeowner units approved to address less-served markets and/or to serve specific government priorities." The approval rate for these risky loans went from 33 per cent in 2007 to 42 per cent in 2008. By mid-2007, average equity as a share of home value was down to six per cent -- from 48 per cent in 2003. At the peak of the U.S. housing bubble, just before it burst, house prices were five times the average American income; in Canada today that ratio is 7.4:1 -- almost 50 per cent higher.
Putting off the inevitable


This high-risk policy actually prevents the natural playing out of the recession -- that is, the purging of the excesses of the previous boom period. CMHC`s easy-money resulted in a 9.3 per cent increase in Canadian household debt between June 2008 and June 2009.

Even bank economists admit to being concerned about a housing bubble. In a September research note, Scotiabank economists Derek Holt and Karen Cordes said, "lenders have been scrambling to get enough product to put into the federal government`s Insured Mortgage Purchase Program over the months, and that may have translated into excessively generous financing terms." Holt suggested that in two or three years -- or whenever the Bank of Canada increases interest rates -- many of these mortgages would be at risk.

The banks themselves have taken on virtually no new risk. According to CMHC numbers in the two years from the beginning of 2007 to January 2009, Canadian banks increased their total mortgage credit outstanding by only 0.01 per cent. Fully 90.5 per cent of all growth in total Canadian mortgage credit outstanding since 2007 has been accounted for by Mortgage Backed Securities. Of course, the banks have no interest in saying no if you have qualified for a securitized CMHC loan -- because they bear no risk if you default.


Murray Dobbin`s Bloggin` Now

The popular Tyee columnist now publishes his own blog: murraydobbin.ca.

If that sounds like sub-prime mortgages, it should. Sub-prime is any loan below prime. If a bank refuses you a loan, and CMHC gives you one, the loan is sub-prime. As Lepoidevin says in his warning letter, "Every single U.S. lender specializing in sub-prime has gone bankrupt. The largest sub-prime lender in the world is now the Canadian government."

Economic fiction


This is the ticking time bomb Prime Minister Stephen Harper has tossed at the Canadian taxpayer. Why? So that he can maintain the fiction that he is a good economic manager and win a majority in the next election.

The problem is no opposition political party wants to expose the looming disaster and risk being responsible for a dramatic fall in house prices. As Liberal finance critic John McCallum told The Globe and Mail: "I don`t think we want the government to be rationing Canadian home-buying."

The price of political cowardice will be very high. And in the end the housing bubble will burst anyway, putting taxpayers on the hook for tens of billions of dollars in defaulted mortgages.

Apologies if this has been discussed before but really get the feeling that Canada is heading for a housing market crash just feels very similar to UK 18 months ago just before the crash.

Regards

Matt
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (preston @ Nov 18 2009, 08:45 AM) Hi all,

Just joined so sorry if the initial post is all doom and gloom ! I currently live in the UK where we are in the middle of the largest property market crash of all time down 25% so far and expecting further 10-20% falls next year. ...
Some of the current unusual gains in BC and ON are driven by the implementation of the HST for July 2010. Expect prices to fall about 5% to 7% in summer next year from the then temporary peak

In addition some moderation may happen across the country as mortgage rates rise.

BUT: the overall rise in the UK was FAR FAR higher than in Canada, fuelled by too much cheap debt, like the US ! Thus, a correction in Canada was much more modest, if at all, compared to the US or UK !

Look at decbt to GDP ratios in Canada and also at mortgage defaults !! FAR FAR lower here than in UK or US !!
 

preston

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Hi Thomas

Thanks for your comments I appreciate things are different in terms of price rises GDP ratios and defaults etc just overly cautious given whats happened here. It does give me some peace of mind that someone with your experience is still bullish about the long term prospects of the market.

Many Thanks

Matt
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (preston @ Nov 18 2009, 09:58 AM) Hi Thomas

Thanks for your comments I appreciate things are different in terms of price rises GDP ratios and defaults etc just overly cautious given whats happened here. It does give me some peace of mind that someone with your experience is still bullish about the long term prospects of the market.

Many Thanks

Matt

indeed .. but not every condo in downtown Vancouver or Toronto is a great investment .. as many are indeed overpriced .. and too many folks are too overlevered .. we just did our own portfolio review to fortify it ..

also, you state: " ..we are in the middle of the largest property market crash of all time down 25% so far and expecting further 10-20% falls next year."

You forgot to state, but know of course, that prices in the UK went UP 200-300% from 2000 in many markets .. say from $500,000 to $2M for a nice house in London .. and now it is down to $1.5M ..

PERSPECTIVE shows that prices in the UK are still quite high .. even after the "crash" !

Hence, enough cash-flow to hold, until prices rise again due to (inflation, in-migration and economic activity), is the name of the game while you hold !!
 

MikeMcCrae

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One thing to remember is you don`t buy the Canadian market. You don`t even buy a provincial or city market. What you buy is the house in a particular area of a particular city. If the goldmine score card says you should buy or not buy that should be your answer. Also remember that what is happening today is nothing more than a snapshot in time. We buy for the long haul. If the numbers make sense today and all the indicators point to a positive fiture for the area then it should be a pretty good investment.
 

Nir

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QUOTE (MikeMcCrae @ Nov 18 2009, 01:11 PM)
What you buy is the house in a particular area of a particular city.




EXACTLY! do not buy average properties and you too, Matt, will not be affected by average trends summarized by such articles/research/statistics. cheers.
 

gsicilia

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Thomas
You mention many people are overlevered, but I am somewhat confused with this. What I have read from this Forum, most people are investing for positive cashflow and longterm hold. Therefore does it really matter how much leverage you have in a property if it rents and is cashflow positive, if you are not investing for the short term appreciation (speculation). A downturn shouldn`t really matter or am I missing something???
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (gsicilia @ Nov 19 2009, 04:47 PM) Thomas
You mention many people are overlevered, but I am somewhat confused with this. What I have read from this Forum, most people are investing for positive cashflow and longterm hold. Therefore does it really matter how much leverage you have in a property if it rents and is cashflow positive, if you are not investing for the short term appreciation (speculation). A downturn shouldn`t really matter or am I missing something???
yes .. many cash-flow .. and many do NOT incl. home owners who live there .. thus an increase for 4% to 5% in interest rate with a 25% higher payment/month makes an impact on affordability !
 

gsicilia

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Nov 19 2009, 07:02 PM) yes .. many cash-flow .. and many do NOT incl. home owners who live there .. thus an increase for 4% to 5% in interest rate with a 25% higher payment/month makes an impact on affordability !

Fair enough. I guess I just confused on how this fit with Preston`s request about market downturn, since a market downturn to the levels mentioned in the articles would most likely keep rates stable if not fall, therefore a positive cashflow property should be good (assuming area and condition) regardless of housing prices.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (gsicilia @ Nov 19 2009, 05:35 PM)
Fair enough. I guess I just confused on how this fit with Preston's request about market downturn, since a market downturn to the levels mentioned in the articles would most likely keep rates stable if not fall, therefore a positive cashflow property should be good (assuming area and condition) regardless of housing prices.


yes .. have cash-flow to hold .. don't be too levered !



Related post on Leverage and 50 Year View:



Are you too levered ? http://myreinspace.com/public_forums/Real_Estate_Discussion/62-10823-When_are_you_too_levered_.html



50 Year house price view: http://myreinspace.com/rein_members_only/Members-Only_Discussion/81-6621-50_Year_Calgary_House_Price_View.html



More difficult lending environment: http://myreinspace.com/public_forums/Real_Estate_Discussion/62-6908-More_difficult_lending_environment_.html
 

Nir

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Another interesting approach is: as an investor be as leveraged as you can. don`t worry about being too leveraged - the banks will make sure you are not too leveraged! think about it they will do the job for you. they have tables showing the maximum loan to value allowed per property type. you learn how to work with banks, buy right and try to put as minimum as possible down, and the banks will prevent you from putting zero down or 10% down or even less than 20% down depending on the risk.
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (investmart @ Nov 19 2009, 10:06 PM)
Another interesting approach is: as an investor be as leveraged as you can. don't worry about being too leveraged - the banks will make sure you are not too leveraged! think about it they will do the job for you. they have tables showing the maximum loan to value allowed per property type. you learn how to work with banks, buy right and try to put as minimum as possible down, and the banks will prevent you from putting zero down or 10% down or even less than 20% down depending on the risk.




If banks were trustworthy at performing that level of due dilligence, they wouldn't be foreclosing on so many people right now. Those people were able to get mortgages, and now a lot of them are bankrupt!



Michael
 

Nir

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The banks are still better than us doing that kind of analysis. it`s easy looking now at what happened in the past but no one expected this number of foreclosures. the banks learned from this too. just put the minimum possible. it may still be a lot of money due to banks` more conservative approach.. which kinda strengthens what I just said. cheers.
 

housedoc

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QUOTE (investmart @ Nov 20 2009, 05:25 PM) The banks are still better than us doing that kind of analysis. it`s easy looking now at what happened in the past but no one expected this number of foreclosures. the banks learned from this too. just put the minimum possible. it may still be a lot of money due to banks` more conservative approach.. which kinda strengthens what I just said. cheers.

Might one argue that CMHC mitigates the bank`s risk.....to zero?
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (housedoc @ Nov 20 2009, 05:31 PM) Might one argue that CMHC mitigates the bank`s risk.....to zero?


The issue with cash flow is that you may have good cashflow now, but things may go sour tomorrow. Rents may fall, expenses may go up, an unexpected major reno, etc. If you get hit by a cashflow shortfall while your equity is down the sewer as well, you may be forced to sell to one of Ron Le Grand`s buddies.

So it is important not to be overlevered as well as to have cashflow. Investing is a bit like dealing with the flue. You can be feeling great all summer, but if during the fall you get the flue and you are not strong enough to cope, you may die in a few short days. To deal with that, even during summer you`ll eat lots of veggies and live a healthy live because that will help you to be strong enough to survive those few critical flue days.

The same with cashflow and sufficient leverage. You have to be economically strong to survive an economic flue attack. In fact you should be so strong and flush with cash that when times get rotten you`re one of the few that can afford to make those `deals of a lifetime` that are likely to come up. As the scout`s motto: "Be prepared".
 

kanabel

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Prices in Alberta, BC and SK dropped up to 20% in past 1-2 years. It more looks as crash to me than correction, in terms you mention. In my opinion, western Canada already experienced bubble burst. Prices in these areas were ascending with higher pace in years prior, than in eastern Canada, therefore steeper decline. Just like UK. So, I wouldn`t be so quick to assume another real estate downfall (at least in Western Canada), and as it seems that the worst sub-prime domino effect has almost, if not all gone. Also I cannot agree that CHMC makes it easy for everyone to get mortgage, just like it was in the U.S. At least I didn`t experience it. We shall see anyway, I might be wrong.

Cheers
Dejan
 

ibuildstuff

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QUOTE (preston @ Nov 18 2009, 09:45 AM) Hi all,
Just joined so sorry if the initial post is all doom and gloom ! I currently live in the UK where we are in the middle of the largest property market crash of all time down 25% so far and expecting further 10-20% falls next year. I am moving to Canada next year(Toronto) and as a seasoned UK investor have been doing some ground work as to where and when to invest over there. Currently looks like the market is going from strength to strength in the Toronto area where I will be based however I am coming across more and more articles predicting a market crash one of which I have attached. I would really appreciate your thoughts on the article.


Why Canada`s Housing Bubble Will Burst

`The largest sub-prime lender in the world is now the Canadian government.`

By Murray Dobbin, 22 Oct 2009, TheTyee.ca


"GARBAGE"


Apologies if this has been discussed before but really get the feeling that Canada is heading for a housing market crash just feels very similar to UK 18 months ago just before the crash.

Regards

Matt

This is without doubt one of the stupidest things I have read. Any canadian that knows anything about buying a home would know that CMHC does not give mortgages...they merely insure high ratio mortgages approved by financial institutions. People writing articles like this should realize that they lose all credibility as soon as they start talking about the government, specifically naming parties. As I could not read the entire article due to the level of ignorance...I am only commenting on the small part I could stomach reading. Get a life - economy is fine!
 

mcgregok

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From Murray Dobbin`s other articals i don`t think he likes Harper. I think he sells doom in his books. I would`nt base my real estate decissions on his blog. To extream!
 

Rickson9

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I can only speak for myself and as a person who owns investment real estate in Toronto I believe that prices are too high.

Good deals are near impossible to find.
 
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