Disgruntled Applicant gets turned down..

[Trizzy]

Hello to all.

So to all those who were aware that I had my first rental property up for rent, I have a signed legitimate lease agreement in place.

Up until about 45 minutes ago, everything was going along quite smoothly.

DISCLAIMER: I am NOT racist, and the following information is being presented as to provide you with further details, as it is relevant to this topic.

I had a total of 3 official applications, and several phone calls I turned down as I didn`t want to convolute/delay things. 2 groups of 5 were of Chinese orentation, and the 3rd group of 5 was of Ghanaian orentation.

I interviewed all 3, and I was primarily interested in both the Ghanaian group and one of the Chinese groups. After deliberating with those close to me, I made my decision and chose the group of Chinese gentlemen.

So this is where it gets sticky. I received a phone call not long ago, and it was the group of Ghanaians. They were interested in finding out if I had made my decision. I had, and I informed them that I had found more suitable tenants who applied. After informing them of this, they immediate took to the defensive, and questioned me about my reasoning why, mentioning that they said they felt good vibes from me and that they felt they were to awarded the unit.

However, it then took an unusual twist. I was questioned if it had something to do with the colour of their skin..WOW. Was I ever taken aback. I froze up. After having them reiterate the question, I rebutled saying I was offended that he would play that card, and explained that it was nothing against them or their ethnicity, it was simply a choice I made based on my criteria for choosing the right tenant. Boy, was that conversation ever awkward. I apologized, and wished him luck in his searches.

Yikes! Any of you ever have anything similar happen to them? Sorry for the long-winded story. Just really caught me off guard.

 

[RebeccaBryan]

Yes I have had similar experiences. Two of my tenants who are moving in at the end of the month was asked to get a criminal check. They are black. They asked me if it was because of that reason. I said no and that I ask all of my tenants to do that. They were sceptical. I just simply told them that if they wanted the suite they needed to provide one for me and then turned it around and asked them why they were trying to avoid doing it and also told them I didn`t beleive that they had never been asked for one before.

Anyway, before I hand over the keys, they need to hand me the documents. They have already put a deposit against first months rent and were told if their criminal check wasn`t clean they would lose it and I wouldn`t let them move in.

No, I don`t always ask for a criminal check, but it`s not only colored people that I request to do it. If I have a credit check that has R1`s I don`t usually ask.

 

[invst4profit]

This is a business where rejection is a common occurrence and understandably many do not take rejection very well.
There is no need to be hurt, offended, surprised or shocked by rejected applicants playing any number of "cards". In time you will learn to take it in stride and simply chock it up to a over reaction to there personal disappointment.

Keeping in mind there are some truly ignorant people out there that go through life with a large chip on there shoulder due to deep seated persecution complexes.
Every landlord in this business long enough and having several units will always end up with at least one of those as a tenant. I have one inherited tenant that regularly shuffles through the entire deck of 52 "cards". She will probably play every 52 at a eviction hearing and would most likely be successful in extending her stay indefinitely.

Be thankful when a rejected tenant plays a "card" and thank your lucky stars for having actually rejected them regardless of the reason you chose for the rejection.

 

[RebeccaBryan]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Jul 18 2010, 08:46 AM) This is a business where rejection is a common occurrence and understandably many do not take rejection very well.
There is no need to be hurt, offended, surprised or shocked by rejected applicants playing any number of "cards". In time you will learn to take it in stride and simply chock it up to a over reaction to there personal disappointment.

Keeping in mind there are some truly ignorant people out there that go through life with a large chip on there shoulder due to deep seated persecution complexes.
Every landlord in this business long enough and having several units will always end up with at least one of those as a tenant. I have one inherited tenant that regularly shuffles through the entire deck of 52 "cards". She will probably play every 52 at a eviction hearing and would most likely be successful in extending her stay indefinitely.

Be thankful when a rejected tenant plays a "card" and thank your lucky stars for having actually rejected them regardless of the reason you chose for the rejection.

I totally agree.

 

[housingrental]

Greg I like the rarely seen positive spin in your last email
Very weird

 

[Dan_Eisenhauer]

Rather than get into the argument about whether your decision was racist or not, simply stick to your line that you are choosing another applicant. You do not need to, and should not under any circumstances, justify your decision. If the applicant is offended by the rejection, the conversation will probably be a no win conversation for you. You do not know what the motivation of the person on the other end of the phone is.

Rebecca, I suggest you need to have a more concrete reason for asking for a criminal check. From your brief description of when you do, it sounds as if you could be accused of discrimination by some disgruntled person in the future. It is okay not to ask of everyone, but have concrete reason FOR asking of those you do.

I suggest that we all should have a printed criteria that we follow when processing applicants. (I do not. So, I need to heed my own advice first.) That way, if we ever get challenged, we can point to the criteria and say, with honesty and integrity, "You didn`t make the cut." This is an idea I have heard of just recently. The list below is intended for RTOs, but given as an example:

* The minimum credit score acceptable to you
* No outstanding judgments or collections
* Good landlord reference (Previous one)
* Confirmation of employment with income of $xxx (Should be 3 - 4 times rent)
* Discharged bankruptcy, if there was one
* Confirmation of the Option Fee
* Tenant has spoken with mortgage representative

 

[kir]

QUOTE (RebeccaBryan @ Jul 18 2010, 07:58 AM)
Yes I have had similar experiences. Two of my tenants who are moving in at the end of the month was asked to get a criminal check. They are black. They asked me if it was because of that reason. I said no and that I ask all of my tenants to do that. They were sceptical. I just simply told them that if they wanted the suite they needed to provide one for me and then turned it around and asked them why they were trying to avoid doing it and also told them I didn't beleive that they had never been asked for one before.



Anyway, before I hand over the keys, they need to hand me the documents. They have already put a deposit against first months rent and were told if their criminal check wasn't clean they would lose it and I wouldn't let them move in.



No, I don't always ask for a criminal check, but it's not only colored people that I request to do it. If I have a credit check that has R1's I don't usually ask.






Rebecca,



What does the criminal check report provide? I'm assuming these are the contents of the RCMP police files on the prospective tenant, if any.

I'm wondering what sort of details are possible.



Thanks,



Kir.

 

[Lucas]

Good post...Thanks Dan!!



Lucas






QUOTE (Dan_Eisenhauer @ Jul 18 2010, 10:45 AM)
Rather than get into the argument about whether your decision was racist or not, simply stick to your line that you are choosing another applicant. You do not need to, and should not under any circumstances, justify your decision. If the applicant is offended by the rejection, the conversation will probably be a no win conversation for you. You do not know what the motivation of the person on the other end of the phone is.



Rebecca, I suggest you need to have a more concrete reason for asking for a criminal check. From your brief description of when you do, it sounds as if you could be accused of discrimination by some disgruntled person in the future. It is okay not to ask of everyone, but have concrete reason FOR asking of those you do.



I suggest that we all should have a printed criteria that we follow when processing applicants. (I do not. So, I need to heed my own advice first.) That way, if we ever get challenged, we can point to the criteria and say, with honesty and integrity, "You didn't make the cut." This is an idea I have heard of just recently. The list below is intended for RTOs, but given as an example:



* The minimum credit score acceptable to you

* No outstanding judgments or collections

* Good landlord reference (Previous one)

* Confirmation of employment with income of $xxx (Should be 3 - 4 times rent)

* Discharged bankruptcy, if there was one

* Confirmation of the Option Fee

* Tenant has spoken with mortgage representative

 

[ontariolandlord]

From the Toronto Star article posted earlier, you must be careful and know the ropes...no matter how friendly you are:

QUOTE In one case, a woman with three teenage boys was refused an apartment. She was able to prove that she was discriminated against for "family status" reasons. The judge accepted her statement of complainant that the superintendent told her that her application would probably be rejected because of her children and was told the landlord had trouble with teenagers in the past. She was awarded $4,000. It is clear that you must be very careful what you say to a tenant at any time in the interview process.

You are permitted to ask a tenant on a rental application if they smoke, whether they have pets and how many people will be living with them in the apartment. You cannot ask about their ethnic background, religious or sexual preference or marital status.

 

[Conrad5]

QUOTE (ontariolandlord @ Jul 18 2010, 11:41 PM)
From the Toronto Star article posted earlier, you must be careful and know the ropes...no matter how friendly you are:








It is important to have a system in place to follow all the time and be able to explain in simple language why someone`s application is not successful. Canada is supposed to be a land where discrimination or prejudice has no place, but it is not in practical reality for some people. Until you listen to their stories and experiences you would never understand their hurts or questions.



Here is a specialist neurosurgeon (Nigerian origin) driving around town in his Cadillac was being asked to produce more than the required information. Even after showing the cops his ID, they were still not convinced. Why?



A graduate student admitted to the University in Canada on a stipend of $25,000.00/annum was refused a visa to the spouse citing insufficient fund. How could one explain that? Course mates of such a student from other countries outside Africa have their spouses` visas approved.



A pharmacist (Africa origin) in one of the big chain Pharmacies went to a washroom one day in his white coat and was surprised to be approached and asked by a Caucasian what was a Blackman doing in a white coat? What might be the motivation behind such a question?



A graduate student (with an Arabic name) on his way to a research conference was questioned more extensively at the Airport than his course mate (with a non Arabic name).



What reasons could be assigned to all the above? It`s hard to tell.



Unfortunately it is some of these actions without adequate and satisfactory explanations to the facts that make people feel hurt and assign various reasons to such occurrences as rejections of applications etc.



Interestingly some of these incidents are rarely reported, so not many in the majority know about them.



Canada as multi-cultural as we all believe it to be still has a long way to go in making people of all cultures feel at home.

 

[PropertySolution]

The only time I have been accused of discrimination was several years ago by a native man and his girlfriend. He threaten to sue me unless I gave him the suite. Imagine his embarrassment when I explained it would be very hard to convince a judge that I was discriminating against him because he was native after all I was more than willing to offer my Status card & Number as a rebuttal. lol

I make my decision partially on probability, what some might call profiling. If we cannot use this than whats the point of "learning your lesson" For example, if someone comes into my office smelling of stale alcohol and smoke or even pot, I know from my experience these type of people make for problem Tenants. When I get burnt I don`t put my hand back in the fire...

If you want to call it discrimination so be it, I call it using what I know.

 

[bizaro86]

QUOTE (PropertySolution @ Jul 19 2010, 05:25 PM) For example, if someone comes into my office smelling of stale alcohol and smoke or even pot, I know from my experience these type of people make for problem Tenants.

I had an applicant who smelled of both alcohol and cigarette smoke (but don`t worry, we don`t mind smoking outside) who I declined recently. Between that and the full hour they spent in the suite nitpicking its condition (the ceiling stipple looks funny there, is that a problem?) and (What do I do if this balconey door breaks?, asked while pulling on it as hard as he could) I decided my life would be better off without having to deal with them. As far as I know being insufferable is not a protected condition.

Michael

 

[creditinfocanada]

My two cents:



Unfortunately prejudice is among us in everything we do, now I will use Alberta for an example so some of the reasons I state may apply here of may apply everywhere.



First off lets deal with criminal record verifications:



Is it a common practice, no, why, well because if anything the credit screening you do (obviously I speak from experience as I would be classified as a professional screener) will show lapses in credit to a trained eye. Now, what this means is this, when I see lapses it leads to questions that I can send back to my clients and tell them to get the answers to. To state that if a record isn’t clean that a tenant would be turned down, well lets pose a question, if someone has a record from 10 years ago for a DUI or a Breach of an Order it certainly doesn’t reflect the person today. We have to watch the tags would put on people, look as Dan said with the proper screening you shouldn’t need on and a lot of companies are getting away from doing them. I have never heard of a bank turning down a $30,000 line of credit to someone with a past, they work on numbers.



Now in Alberta



Can we discriminate, well in some cases we must, I’m sorry to say and I am fully guilty of it on a daily basis.



For a company such as C.I.C. as you can imagine I enforce orders and sue people and for that matter screen them everyday. Now where do I discriminate, unfortunately on almost every file I do but ask my clients on how many screens I have done and how many have turned bad and the number is under 10 with over 1000 screens in the last year.



Dealing with people of aboriginal backgrounds are a land mind, why, we cant enforce against them on a reserve, is it a bad thing, well to be blunt when I screen for one of my clients I look at all attributes including the fact that if we have to evict than what.



People on government assistance and AISH, well we can sue them but and I apologize to my client using this example, but after a $7,000 claim against a woman on AISH due to the debtors capabilities we took arrangements of $35.00 a month over the next 15 years.



The bottom line is this, your business is your business and some will screen their perspective tenants differently than others. I don’t knock any of my clients of future clients from doing so. But we have to as owners and L.L.’s be cognizant of the problems that we may have in the end.

 

[Berubeland]

http://www.thestar.com/article/252817

This is a recent article in the Star. I also researched this subject. I looked through the last six months of cases at the Human Rights Tribunal. Not one was a judgement against a landlord. A few made it before the Tribunal and were abandoned. (the tenant didn`t show up)

It seems to me that landlords have nothing to fear at least in Ontario. If I find information about something different I`ll say that instead.

It`s really sad, I`ve been discriminated against and I`d rather live in a world without discrimination.

 

[Goodstuff]

I ask for the birthdate on my application, but am wondering if I should be doing so now...