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Garth Turner: Modern-Day Prophet?

Jack

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-At least four times last week I was contacted by a young reporter from the Globe and Mail who told me he was writing a story about the coming of 40-year mortgages to Canada. He had heard I’d been the only MP to object to changes in the regulation of mortgages when they were proposed, then passed, by the Harper government in 2006. Why, he wondered? You can read his story here. It is compelling evidence Jim Flaherty was instrumental in destroying the Canadian residential real estate market, allowing a sudden drop in lending standards to turn a healthy and strong housing market into an unsustainable bubble.-Two years ago I went public about the potential chaos that would ensue from allowing borrowers to extend repayment periods from 25 years to 40 years, and also sanctioning zero-down real estate transactions. After all, it was very clear that allowing people who had no money to buy houses would end badly. In addition, 40-year amortizations did nothing but drop monthly payments and let people borrow more on the same income. That fuelled higher real estate prices, and quickened the death spiral of debt.-One year ago, in December 2007, I sat and wrote the book, “Greater Fool” which spelled out in detail my problem with these Canadian subprime mortgages, and predicted the outcome – a US-style real estate contagion which would sweep Canada. Unfortunately, I was right. It is now infecting every city. It will grow more virulent as the economy weakens and unemployment spreads. By the time the real estate market bottom in perhaps a year, maybe longer, values will have dropped by up to a third more.-the advent of Canadian subprimes started almost immediately with the election of Stephen Harper. In Flaherty’s first budget, the way was paved for a relaxation of lending standards which would contain the seeds of disaster. At the time I raised the reality of the rapidly-devolving US housing market and the apparent destruction of the American middle class as a result

-We were told the banks were the strongest in the world, and yet Ottawa found it necessary to give them a $75 billion bailout
. Also telling is the fact three of the Big Six
– including our largest bank, RBC – are out flogging new stock right now to raise more money, despite a terrible environment on Bay Street

-We were told there’d be no deficit. But there is already.
Now the prime minister calls red ink “essential,” and the Parliamentary Budget Officer says we could have a shortfall of up to $14 billion
.

-We were told there’d be no recession here
. “This is not the United States,” Mr. Harper said
pointedly during the election. But now there is, of course
.

-We were told the value of our homes would keep on rising, that the US real estate meltdown would pass us by. The Canadian Real Estate Association said this, and bank economists, Canada Mortgage and Housing and most urban real estate boards
. But real estate sales have fallen as much as 70% in major cities
, and average prices have plunged up to $175,000 in Vancouver, $56,000 in Calgary and $45,000 in Toronto
. Buyers are staying home as sellers flood the market, ensuring more price drops
.

-We were told Canadians were safe, and our households were far less indebted than those to the south. And yet today the Bank of Canada is raising the awful spectre of widespread anguish, as more and more families face losing their homes
. “With household balance sheets under pressure from weak equity markets, softening house prices, slowing income growth, and record high debt-to-income ratios, a severe economic downturn could result in a substantial increase in default rates on household debt,”
the bank says. If this happens, it adds, so much for Canada’s ‘strong’ banks
.
“Should this scenario materialize, the banking sector would suffer significant losses from the rising vulnerability in the household sector.”

-
It underscores one reality: You’re on your own.
This economy’s in very bad shape and there’s worse to come.

http://www.garth.ca/weblog/2008/12/11/guess-what/
 

MonteDobson

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These types of stories are great for book sales and blog hits!!


PS. Since when is a 40 yr mortgage "sub-prime"??
 

mcgregok

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Harry Dent is much better . If you had followed Garth you would have missed the real estate boom. Dents overall trend has been quite good.

http://www.hsdent.com/free-downloads/

Outside of being in publishing and having a Batchlor of Arts in English Lit. What experience in real estate does Garth have?
 

retiredby50

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You`re quite the harbinger of doom there, aren`t you Jack? You might consider a new signature line: "And to add to the bad news, some day you`ll be DEAD!"



(gleefully rubbing my hands together) Man I hope everybody reads this stuff. The more people do, the more prices will plummet, and the better my odds of cashflowing properties in Alberta. Wooo Hoooo!

"PLEASE GOD, GIVE ME ANOTHER BUST. I PROMISE TO BUY EVERYTHING IN SIGHT THIS TIME!"
 

t67

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sounds more like a Liberal rant than a prophet. The main line of attack seems to be aimed at Harper and the Conservatives. The 40 yr amortization was a good investment tool, I was sorry to see it go.
 

Jack

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QUOTE These types of stories are great for book sales and blog hits!!
Really? I think he makes some pretty good points, especially about the evils of loose-lending that`s gone on because of Jim Flaherty. Most mortgages used to have 25-year amortization periods, yes (heck, I remember my first mortgage on my first purchased property as a 21 year-old had a 15
-year amortization)? Now, we`ve got 30, 35, even 40-year amortization periods as the norm. With longer amortization periods, the payments go down. Hence, people could borrow more if they went for a longer amortization period. Since most people (foolishly) will borrow to their max, and buy as big and as nice a house as they can "afford" (thanks to these long amortization periods), this may have aritifically
inflated real estate values all across the country; again, based on emotion/entitlement and not fundamental economics.

It`s an interesting point that he makes, and what he`s really saying is that this is one of the prime factors that contributed to the real estate bubble that`s since been burst in America.
 

JasGrewal

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 3 2009, 12:12 PM) Really? I think he makes some pretty good points, especially about the evils of loose-lending that`s gone on because of Jim Flaherty. Most mortgages used to have 25-year amortization periods, yes (heck, I remember my first mortgage on my first purchased property as a 21 year-old had a 15-year amortization)? Now, we`ve got 30, 35, even 40-year amortization periods as the norm. With longer amortization periods, the payments go down. Hence, people could borrow more if they went for a longer amortization period. Since most people (foolishly) will borrow to their max, and buy as big and as nice a house as they can "afford" (thanks to these long amortization periods), this may have aritifically inflated real estate values all across the country; again, based on emotion/entitlement and not fundamental economics.

It`s an interesting point that he makes, and what he`s really saying is that this is one of the prime factors that contributed to the real estate bubble that`s since been burst in America.

One of the key items missing in this piece was that the underwriting guidelines were a lot more strict for 40 year amortization mortgages. There may be some exposure for the average Canadian to take out a 40 year AM versus a 25 year AM, however, for most sophisticated real estate investors, the 40 year AM has proven to be an effective tool to manage cashflow and advantageously postition their portfolio for future mortgage qualification.
 

calgarypoolshark

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QUOTE (retiredby50 @ Jan 3 2009, 01:52 AM) You`re quite the harbinger of doom there, aren`t you Jack? You might consider a new signature line: "And to add to the bad news, some day you`ll be DEAD!"



(gleefully rubbing my hands together) Man I hope everybody reads this stuff. The more people do, the more prices will plummet, and the better my odds of cashflowing properties in Alberta. Wooo Hoooo!

"PLEASE GOD, GIVE ME ANOTHER BUST. I PROMISE TO BUY EVERYTHING IN SIGHT THIS TIME!"

Sure, you think you can profit from a bust..... but have some humanity - don`t you care about the people that would be hurt, the millions of people. If not you`re a greedier guy than me.. and i`m pretty greedy.
 

CalvinPeters

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I think Garth is an intriguing person, I very much enjoyed watching his talks in the 90`s. He is a very entertaining and convincing Speaker. If I had listened to him though...I would be very poor today. I am glad I had the foresight to ignore him in the past, and while I do enjoy a differant view to make sure I have perspective...I dont care for his tone or delivery on his blog. (or his message) Perhaps he should post under "The Glass is HALF EMPTY, AHHHHHHHHH!!!!" bu then again, he might if he thought he would get more hits!


(and on the Politic front, the times change daily. using comments from Harper months ago in this economy is silly at best. Things have been changing hourly! Talk about "spin!" but that goes back to "hits" on his blog again, doesnt it!)
 

mcgregok

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QUOTE (Nukav @ Jan 5 2009, 03:15 PM) I think Garth is an intriguing person, I very much enjoyed watching his talks in the 90`s. He is a very entertaining and convincing Speaker. If I had listened to him though...I would be very poor today. I am glad I had the foresight to ignore him in the past,


Just have to look a Garths past history. Being an English lit. major I think Garth could write a few interesting poems, But tell us about real estate I don`t think so!
 

ChrisDavies

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As a guy who optimizes websites for a living, he`s doing a great job of pimping out his site. Even the words he uses line up with keyword research. The only mistake he`s making is posting the same stuff in two places (garth.ca and greaterfool.ca).

Check out the traffic stats for his sites: he`s surfing the bad news waves.

Compete.com stats: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/garth.ca+...l.ca/?metric=uv
 

Thomas Beyer

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This Garth blog, http://www.greaterfool.ca .. actually is named after about Garth himself ...

it comes from an old, tired man .. and when I am tired usually I have negative thoughts too ..

yes, a lot of things could happen .. so let`s write a book about it .. as FEAR sells ..

interesting comments on his blog ..
 

Jack

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QUOTE There may be some exposure for the average Canadian to take out a 40 year AM versus a 25 year AM, however, for most sophisticated real estate investors, the 40 year AM has proven to be an effective tool to manage cashflow and advantageously postition their portfolio for future mortgage qualification.

Whether or not it`s an effective tool to manage cashflow is irrelevant.

What Garth`s saying is that the loose-lending movement has really put many Canadians at risk, with the recent downturn in real estate. When people are using 40-year mortgages to buy their principal residence, only because they can`t qualify with anything else, is that smart? What do you think that`s done to home values? Artificially inflate them? I`d say yes.

If what he`s saying is accurate, that he was the only MP (or MLA, or whatever he is/was) to oppose to 40-year amortizations, I think he ought to be commended. If he was the only MP to bring up the risks of looser-lending, I think he ought to be commended. I think too many people got into the habit over the last decade of just assuming that real estate will always go up, year after year, even if it`s just a moderate amount. If Garth had the foresight to see all of these events coming together to produce the perfect storm of a downturn, I say good on him, and I say that`s a guy who`s opinion we should respect and listen to.
 

CalvinPeters

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"I think too many people got into the habit over the last decade of just assuming that real estate will always go up, year after year, even if it`s just a moderate amount. If Garth had the foresight to see all of these events coming together to produce the perfect storm of a downturn, I say good on him, and I say that`s a guy who`s opinion we should respect and listen to."


Every book on Real Estate Investing that I have read mentions that Real Estate operates in cycles, every Mentor I have ever had has cautioned me that Real Estate operates in cycles and sometimes goes down in value...every investor presentation/OM or whatever I have seen has clearly stated this fact on the FRONT PAGE. This being a real estate investment site, I dont think this is news to anyone here.

As to you following Mr. Turner`s advice, I wish you well on that.
 

GarthChapman

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 5 2009, 09:30 PM) Whether or not it`s an effective tool to manage cashflow is irrelevant.

What Garth`s saying is that the loose-lending movement has really put many Canadians at risk, with the recent downturn in real estate. When people are using 40-year mortgages to buy their principal residence, only because they can`t qualify with anything else, is that smart? What do you think that`s done to home values? Artificially inflate them? I`d say yes.

If what he`s saying is accurate, that he was the only MP (or MLA, or whatever he is/was) to oppose to 40-year amortizations, I think he ought to be commended. If he was the only MP to bring up the risks of looser-lending, I think he ought to be commended. I think too many people got into the habit over the last decade of just assuming that real estate will always go up, year after year, even if it`s just a moderate amount. If Garth had the foresight to see all of these events coming together to produce the perfect storm of a downturn, I say good on him, and I say that`s a guy who`s opinion we should respect and listen to.

If I had listened to Garth Turner in 2004 and 2005 and 2006 I would not have bought any investment properties during those years. That would mean I would not now be financially independant.

Remember that those who predict downturns eventually become correct. I will agree that not all of what Turner says is wrong either. We did loosen credit, reduce interest rates and extended amortization periods - and those things helped to boost home ownership and helped inflate property values. Did we go too far? Perhaps. I think 100% financing and 40 year ammortizations we going too far. But we did not permit Ninja loans with teaser rates to unqualified borrowers as happened in the USA. And that is what has caused the big melt-down. NOTE- The USA represents 1/3 of the entire world economy - so when they have a melt-down the whole world is dragged down with them - just as they will drag us all back up again when they recover. These are the consequences to us due to the immense size of the American economy.

Had we not loosened credit, reduced interest rates and extended amortization periods we still would have seen big drops in 2008, but from lower value peaks. Canadians would still have bought houses and still would have the same payment amounts as they do now - but they would have smaller homes - with the same-sized monthly payments. So the liquidity of Canadian homeowners would not be any different than it is now. But their homes would be worth less, and their individual net worth would therefore be lower. I know mine sure would - even if I only count our personal residence and ignore our investments properties.

So all in all I`m OK with what has been done in Canada over the last 5-8 years. I managed my credit wisely, as it is my responsibility to do. Had I not managed my finances properly I would have no-one to blame but myself.
 

dcres

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This is the same Super Star who proposed that everyone take equity out of their homes
& invest in the Mutual Fund Equity market back in 1998.
We all know what happened then.
He sells alot of books.
 

cmattric

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In Germany there is 100-year-Mortgages. But it come out recently. I can say that prices over there is much much higher in general. May be it is related to the land we got here.
 

ohsofrugal

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QUOTE (Jack @ Jan 5 2009, 10:30 PM) Whether or not it`s an effective tool to manage cashflow is irrelevant.What Garth`s saying is that the loose-lending movement has really put many Canadians at risk, with the recent downturn in real estate. When people are using 40-year mortgages to buy their principal residence, only because they can`t qualify with anything else, is that smart? What do you think that`s done to home values? Artificially inflate them? I`d say yes.
If what he`s saying is accurate, that he was the only MP (or MLA, or whatever he is/was) to oppose to 40-year amortizations, I think he ought to be commended.
If he was the only MP to bring up the risks of looser-lending, I think he ought to be commended. I think too many people got into the habit over the last decade of just assuming that real estate will always go up, year after year, even if it`s just a moderate amount. If Garth had the foresight to see all of these events coming together to produce the perfect storm of a downturn, I say good on him, and I say that`s a guy who`s opinion we should respect and listen to.

Just so everybody is clear on what exactly we are commending Garth Turner for, I`d like to point out that the 40 year amortizations he strongly opposed represents only 6% of outstanding mortgages
. I`m sure Mr. Turner neglected to mention that on his website.

I`ve seen nothing to indicate this is the case but in the absence of evidence, lets just assume that the majority of people taking these mortgages are buying principal residences they can`t afford on their income and running up the house values. That would mean that 40 year ams caused about 315,000 `artificially inflated` houses in all of Canada
. I know small towns with populations bigger than that. Garth Turner would like us to believe this was a primary
factor in creating an unsustainable real estate bubble? Gimme a break. This guy definitely belongs in the fiction section.
 

seeu22

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QUOTE (ohsofrugal @ Jan 10 2009, 11:32 AM)
Just so everybody is clear on what exactly we are commending Garth Turner for, I'd like to point out that the 40 year amortizations he strongly opposed represents only 6% of outstanding mortgages. I'm sure Mr. Turner neglected to mention that on his website.



I've seen nothing to indicate this is the case but in the absence of evidence, lets just assume that the majority of people taking these mortgages are buying principal residences they can't afford on their income and running up the house values. That would mean that 40 year ams caused about 315,000 'artificially inflated' houses in all of Canada. I know small towns with populations bigger than that. Garth Turner would like us to believe this was a primary
factor in creating an unsustainable real estate bubble? Gimme a break. This guy definitely belongs in the fiction section.




Your logic is flawed in the above post. While 40 year ams may only represent 6% of the total outstanding mortgages, they represent a significantly higher portion of new mortgages and renewals in the short time that they have been around. So yes the 40 year am did put upwards pressure on housing prices. If you "need" a 40 year am to purchase a primary residence you shouldn't be buying a house in the first place. Notice I put need in quotes, it is fine to take a 40 year am to improve your cash flow or allow you to manage monthly expenses better. The government got it right by doing away with them.



Also since real estate pricing is primarily driven by comps, 315 000 inflated sales does have a significant effect on real estate prices.



Neil
 

terri

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QUOTE (seeu22 @ Jan 10 2009, 11:34 AM) Your logic is flawed in the above post. While 40 year ams may only represent 6% of the total outstanding mortgages, they represent a significantly higher portion of new mortgages and renewals in the short time that they have been around. So yes the 40 year am did put upwards pressure on housing prices. If you "need" a 40 year am to purchase a primary residence you shouldn`t be buying a house in the first place. Notice I put need in quotes, it is fine to take a 40 year am to improve your cash flow or allow you to manage monthly expenses better. The government got it right by doing away with them.

Also since real estate pricing is primarily driven by comps, 315 000 inflated sales does have a significant effect on real estate prices.

Neil

I don`t know about any one else but I didn`t notice 40 yr amorts making houses more affordable, I think it just made them more expensive, perhaps not in new homes, but definitely in resale, home prices jumped quite a bit simply because people could now afford to pay more for the same house. I think this then forced many more people to go to 40 yr amorts simply to stay competitive in a bidding war situation. So maybe we are better off without 40 yrs, afterall.

T.
 
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