Good tenant wants out of lease

[EdRenkema]

I`ve posted on this problem before but nobody seems to know how to deal with it, its kind of a long story, I`ll try to abreviate.I purchased an end unit condo August 08, extensive renos with associated headaches and total 5 months vacancy to place tenants.
I now have tenants on a 1 yr lease since Feb. 09, pay rent and take good care of property.
Tenants have been having problems with other resident directly across the street who is beligerant uses profane language, exposes himself and threatens them indicating he knows people who will `get` them. The problem guy is an owner with children, doesn`t work and has been to jail twice for drug convictions. Apparently other neighbours have issues with this guy but only those who are immigrants as my tenants are (Portugese). My tenants are not only afraid for themselves but primarily for their 2 adopted boys who have come from an abusive home, they are afraid Children`s Aid Society will remove the children since they are not in a safe place. The little boys are already acting out imitating the language and profane gestures. The police have been called on numerous occasions but end up doing nothing since they must catch the problem guy in the act, additionally my tenants do not speak very good English as the other immigrant families also do not and when police arrive there is a chaotic scenario with shouting inarticulate people - you get the picture.
End of the day the problem guy knows how to work the system to his advantage and my tenants are running scared. Today they gave me verbal notice that they want out in 2 months. The wife is so shook up she start to shake and cry when she talks about it.

Can they do this? they have a lease and the means to pay.
Here is my problem: if I let them go how can I rent or sell this unit with the problem guy there???
I`ve told my tenants if I let them go I will be losing money, oh but we lost money also they say, we`ve paid $1000 to have a video camera installed but it doesn`t work properly etc.
They obviously have no comprehension of the scale of what I`m losing.
Without getting specific and for obvious reasons I know a very simple solution to this problem I`m just not sure on how to go about it.

Please help!

 

[Conrad5]

QUOTE (EdRenkema @ Aug 1 2009, 08:40 PM) I`ve posted on this problem before but nobody seems to know how to deal with it, its kind of a long story, I`ll try to abreviate.I purchased an end unit condo August 08, extensive renos with associated headaches and total 5 months vacancy to place tenants.
I now have tenants on a 1 yr lease since Feb. 09, pay rent and take good care of property.
Tenants have been having problems with other resident directly across the street who is beligerant uses profane language, exposes himself and threatens them indicating he knows people who will `get` them. The problem guy is an owner with children, doesn`t work and has been to jail twice for drug convictions. Apparently other neighbours have issues with this guy but only those who are immigrants as my tenants are (Portugese). My tenants are not only afraid for themselves but primarily for their 2 adopted boys who have come from an abusive home, they are afraid Children`s Aid Society will remove the children since they are not in a safe place. The little boys are already acting out imitating the language and profane gestures. The police have been called on numerous occasions but end up doing nothing since they must catch the problem guy in the act, additionally my tenants do not speak very good English as the other immigrant families also do not and when police arrive there is a chaotic scenario with shouting inarticulate people - you get the picture.
End of the day the problem guy knows how to work the system to his advantage and my tenants are running scared. Today they gave me verbal notice that they want out in 2 months. The wife is so shook up she start to shake and cry when she talks about it.

Can they do this? they have a lease and the means to pay.
Here is my problem: if I let them go how can I rent or sell this unit with the problem guy there???
I`ve told my tenants if I let them go I will be losing money, oh but we lost money also they say, we`ve paid $1000 to have a video camera installed but it doesn`t work properly etc.
They obviously have no comprehension of the scale of what I`m losing.
Without getting specific and for obvious reasons I know a very simple solution to this problem I`m just not sure on how to go about it.

Please help!


Was the problem guy the reason your unit laid vacant for that long? My suspicion is that potential renters at the time did their due diligence and got to know about the problem guy and decided not to rent, hence the long vacancy of your unit. Anyway, lets hear what the most experienced here say.
Conrad.

 

[EdRenkema]

QUOTE (caglah @ Aug 1 2009, 09:07 PM)
Was the problem guy the reason your unit laid vacant for that long? My suspicion is that potential renters at the time did their due diligence and got to know about the problem guy and decided not to rent, hence the long vacancy of your unit. Anyway, lets hear what the most experienced here say.

Conrad.






Not likely, the vacancy was Sept 08 to Jan 09, winter is difficult at the best of times and those were not the best of times as you recall. Also this unit is in the lower city, units rent much easier in the upper city of Hamilton as its far more desirable. Thats why I only buy up the 'mountain' as the locals call it.

 

[invst4profit]

In my opinion your tenants are as big a problem as the guy across the street.
Are you certain they understand the RTA pertaining to there legal responsibilities.
If not then sit down with them, with an interpreter if necessary, and explain to them that they are responsible for the rent till the end of the lease unless you find a new tenant.
I would make an honest effort to find a new tenant that will be able to handle the neighbour.
But I would make it very clear to your tenants that if they try to walk away from there responsibilities before a new tenant was found that I would take them to the LTB and go through small claims court to garnish there wages for any rent owing.
I would be very tough with these tenants, because they are leaving through no fault of yours, and not give an inch on what they owe.

 

[EdRenkema]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Aug 1 2009, 10:07 PM) I would be very tough with these tenants, because they are leaving through no fault of yours, and not give an inch on what they owe.

Valid points Greg, I do concur, I just spent a long time on the phone with their adult daughter, the situation is far worse than I thought. They are aware of their obligations but care only about their adopted children and will do anything to keep them in a safe environment. The problem neighbour will be brought up on charges but will attempt to appear mentally unstable and then the justice system can do nothing to him. This guy is also verbally assaulting and threatening their adult daughter including taking videos of her as she arrives home from work. Its unbelievable the lengths this guy is going to make their lives misery. Everyone in the entire neighbourhood is either selling if they are owners or moving out if they are tenants. I`m afraid I`m going to lose here big time unless we can figure out how to eliminate this guy.

 

[invst4profit]

Obviously there is very little you can do about the problem neighbour. You will need to concentrate your efforts on your tenants.
Have they paid August rent. If yes there is little you can do until Sept. As soon as they miss a rent payment serve the N4.
Try and nail them down as to when they are moving out. You may be able to negotiate something with them to stay until you find a new tenant. If not then you have little choice.
Chances are you will need to go through small claims court to get the money owed but get a ruling from the LTB first.

 

[PaulPoulsen]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Aug 1 2009, 10:07 PM) But I would make it very clear to your tenants that if they try to walk away from there responsibilities before a new tenant was found that I would take them to the LTB and go through small claims court to garnish there wages for any rent owing.
I would be very tough with these tenants, because they are leaving through no fault of yours, and not give an inch on what they owe.

It`s comments like this that give landlords a bad reputation.

The problem lies solely with the neighbour and the difficulties with the tenants are a symptom of the situation as a whole. Even if one is successful in forcing these tenants to stay for the duration of their lease, they`ll be gone the instant the lease is up and this same problem will still exist with new tenants.

Put yourself in the tenants` shoes and ask, "How long would I live in a property where I felt unsafe and was concerned about the well being of my family?" Truthfully, I`m surprised the tenants are still there and taking the time to have their daughter call on their behalf in an effort to rectify the situation. I know what I`d do if I were the tenant. I`d complain to the landlord and when he said, "Yeah, I know the guy is a lunatic. I`m frustrated too. But, such is life. Rent is due on the first until your lease is up," I`d pack my bag and be gone the next day, lease agreement be damned.

What to do? Well, money talks so you could approach the neighbour and see if he`d be receptive to a cash settlement to stay out of your tenants` hair. Pay him $100 or $1,000 or whatever you think it would take for him to back off.

Bribery not your thing? Well, seeing as this unit is in a condo complex, you`ve got a very valuable bullet in your gun. Approach the board (or better yet, get yourself onto the board) and present the situation with as much documentation and support from other owners as possible. Lobby hard to have the offending party fined for interfering with the use and enjoyment of the property. Every time this guy steps out of line, slap him with a $250 fine (or whatever the board deems appropriate). One of two things will happen: 1) He`ll get the idea that his idiocy costs him money and he`ll back off or 2) he`ll be enraged that the condo board THAT HE PAYS FEES TO thinks they have the right to tell him how to behave IN HIS OWN HOME and he`ll refuse to pay the fines. If he refuses to pay, the board places a caveat on his unit and should he STILL refuse to pay, the board will be in a position to foreclose.

Speak to an attorney and see if you have cause for a lawsuit. The neighbour is legitimately taking money out of your pocket by intimidating your tenants to the point that they feel they have no other recourse than to move. Your loss of rental income can be directly attributed to his actions. The same could be said for what he`s doing to property values by behaving like a psychotic.

Call the police each and every time he steps out of line regardless of how minor the offense may be. Music too loud? Call the cops. Park too far away from the curb? Call bylaw enforcement. He has a dog that barks at night? Call the SPCA. Do the police tell you not to be so picky and that they have more important things to do? Write letters to the newspapers, city council, your MLA and your MP explaining the situation and your lack of satisfaction.

This situation is all about leverage and right now, Psycho Neighbour has it in spades. The tenants and owners are afraid of him and you`re at a loss as to how to proceed. He`s running wild and doesn`t think there`s anything anyone can do about it.

You need to discover leverage of your own in order to impose your will upon him, just as he`s currently doing to your tenants. If you`re a 6`8", 300lbs outlaw biker that can walk up to his door, stick a finger in his chest and tell him to straighten out, you`re set. If not, you`ll need to use the condo board, the legal system and law enforcement as a hammer to pound this man into submission.

Will this be something that will be resolved in days or weeks? No. It`ll likely take months or even years. Is there the possibility he`ll threaten you and do his best to turn your life into a living hell? Yes there is but this just gives you more ammunition in your battle against him.

This is a problem that will eventually need to be addressed so you`ll need to decide if this is the hill you want to die on. Think about it and perhaps you`ll come to the conclusion that the easiest course of action is to cut your tenants loose and sell the property just like the other owners are doing and save yourself a lot of grief in the process.

 

[TodorYordanov]

Paul you are dead on.

The tenants are the nicest people and they would`ve been the perfect tenants for years to come if it wasn`t for this guy across the street. You can`t blame them for looking for a safe place to raise their kids.

 

[EdRenkema]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Aug 2 2009, 08:41 PM) Obviously there is very little you can do about the problem neighbour. You will need to concentrate your efforts on your tenants. Have they paid August rent. If yes there is little you can do until Sept. As soon as they miss a rent payment serve the N4.Try and nail them down as to when they are moving out. You may be able to negotiate something with them to stay until you find a new tenant. If not then you have little choice.Chances are you will need to go through small claims court to get the money owed but get a ruling from the LTB first.


WHAT?

Did you not read Paul`s well put discourse.
I couldn`t even sleep last night I was so stressed, no not because of my potential of losing money here, while that is a concern.
I`m outraged that a 2bit punk like this can control a whole neighbourhood with his psychotic gyrations and ruin people`s lives for no other reason than they are immigrants who have minimal command of the English language. The fact they are inarticulate in English is the very reason they have been unable to present a united and well articulated defense against this whacko. And the fact that he is well versed in how the system works is why he`s getting away with it.
My own parents were immigrants who struggled to make a go of it in this country and succeeded in giving wierdos like this a wide berth. To focus only on protecting my financial interests is self centered and irresponsible.

Greg you are callous and way off base, this lady is a sweetheart and has taken meticulous good care of my house, now she is frightened to death. She only wants to protect her adopted children.

Paul thank you for your well thought out comments.

 

[Merriora]

QUOTE (EdRenkema @ Aug 3 2009, 11:10 AM) WHAT?Did you not read Paul`s well put discourse.
I couldn`t even sleep last night I was so stressed, no not because of my potential of losing money here, while that is a concern.
I`m outraged that a 2bit punk like this can control a whole neighbourhood with his psychotic gyrations and ruin people`s lives for no other reason than they are immigrants who have minimal command of the English language. The fact they are inarticulate in English is the very reason they have been unable to present a united and well articulated defense against this whacko. And the fact that he is well versed in how the system works is why he`s getting away with it.
My own parents were immigrants who struggled to make a go of it in this country and succeeded in giving wierdos like this a wide berth. To focus only on protecting my financial interests is self centered and irresponsible.

Greg you are callous and way off base, this lady is a sweetheart and has taken meticulous good care of my house, now she is frightened to death. She only wants to protect her adopted children.

Paul thank you for your well thought out comments.

I read through this thread, but still haven`t seen any discussion regarding your contacts with police? He may know the system, but you can learn the system too. What he is doing is Criminal Harassment. Your tenants need to keep detailed records (date/time and what was stated) of all negative contacts. They then need to write up an extremely detailed statement discussing their fear and then contact police with this information. It may be advantageous for you to schedule an interpreter to be available for police so that they properly understand the situation. Possible charges resulting in No Contacts or an 810 Peace Bond may then be possible. Both would give police arrest authority in the future on any negative contacts by the neighbour.

Regards,

 

[JohnS]

In general, Paul`s reply was excellent. The only thing I would add is contacting Jules McKenzie if you haven`t yet. I`ve only met him in passing, but he`s a REIN member that people speak very highly of, and he is (was?) a cop, or RCMP officer, I believe. So, he would probably have some very solid ideas on what to do, from both the legal and the investor viewpoints.

Good luck with it!

JohnS

 

[EdRenkema]

I`ve spoken to Jules 4 wks ago.
The tenants` adult daughter and the mother are attending a hearing with a Justice of the Peace on Aug. 11. The JOP is critically concerned with the effect on the 2 boys who have been rescued from an abusive home, this only exacerbates their condition. The red herring is if this guy can prove mental instability, not difficult given our system of `justice`/rehabilitation. The tenants themselves have given up, they are moving out, they document nothing and they have no faith in either the police or the `justice` system. The system favours those who know how to work the system and they do not know how to work the system.
I feel it is up to me to follow through, this will take time and money, neither of which I have in excess supply.
But if it were my family or my children....

This guy needs to go down, legally or otherwise.

 

[invst4profit]

I agree that you can try all of the things already mentioned on the previous posts but your chances of success are extremely limited. The police are of no help, the neighborhood is incapable of getting rid of this guy and all you are getting is advice on how to solve a problem that no one else has been able to do. Fine try everything possible.
I did not give advice regarding how to hold there hand and walk them through this. Others more qualified may give personal advice. I gave business advice.

Now back to running your business.
In the event a good tenant walks is it a LL responsibility to take the brunt of some guys mental problem in there wallet. If every outside problem in the world that effects a tenant is expected to be a landlords problem then we will not be in business very long. Being compassionate to there plight is fine but I do not see how that enters into LLs losing money for something that is not their fault and beyond your control.

If they are breaking a legal lease and telling you there personal problem is more important than your financial loss then I would say, nice or not, they are being callous and uncaring toward your situation.
I personally am very considerate of my tenants personal life situations however I am a business person running a business not a charity.
Separate business from personal, I would very nicely tell them they may do as they please but the money is owed.

Do any of you other LLs on here believe the tenants have no obligation to pay the rent owed. I do not read anyone saying let them walk scott free. No. Ok then if that is the case then my advice regarding the business aspect of this situation is correct.
Like it or not there are tough decisions to be made if you want to stay in business, any business.

 

[invst4profit]

QUOTE ( @ Aug 3 2009, 02:10 PM) WHAT?Did you not read Paul`s well put discourse.
I couldn`t even sleep last night I was so stressed, no not because of my potential of losing money here, while that is a concern.
I`m outraged that a 2bit punk like this can control a whole neighbourhood with his psychotic gyrations and ruin people`s lives for no other reason than they are immigrants who have minimal command of the English language. The fact they are inarticulate in English is the very reason they have been unable to present a united and well articulated defense against this wacko. And the fact that he is well versed in how the system works is why he`s getting away with it.
My own parents were immigrants who struggled to make a go of it in this country and succeeded in giving weirdos like this a wide berth. To focus only on protecting my financial interests is self centered and irresponsible.

Greg you are callous and way off base, this lady is a sweetheart and has taken meticulous good care of my house, now she is frightened to death. She only wants to protect her adopted children.

Paul thank you for your well thought out comments.

Paul posted after me not before me so there was no way for me to read it before I posted.
As far as being callous is concerned I gave you valid advice regarding dealing with this situation in regards to running of your business.
Would my advice be less callous if your tenant was a alcoholic trouble maker that you were glad to get rid of. I was responding to your business situation not your personal situation. I am not qualified to give personal advice.

As far as Paul`s comments are concerned if you want to let her walk that is definitely your decision but consider that in making a decision to move, which in her case is the correct decision, she is still morally obligated to uphold here financial commitment to you.
Putting my family first, in a situation such as this, would not excuse me from the commitment I have made to a LL or anyone else I owed money to.

 

[JohnS]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Aug 3 2009, 10:39 PM) As far as being callous is concerned

I think the problem, Greg, with how your message was received is that you seemed to focus more attention on `getting` the tenants than on being humane. I had to go back to reread your original post, as in that one you did mention that he can get a new tenant, thereby relieving them of their responsibilities (both legally and morally). Because of the tone of your later posts, it would be easy for people to miss that you had in fact acknowledged that.

Now, you definitely are right in that they should abide by agreed-upon terms, but forcing them to stay where they aren`t happy, where they don`t feel safe, and where their kids` well-being is at risk really doesn`t help anyone. At best, it`s a bandaid solution that avoids the real problem. They`ll bolt as soon as they`re able to, and the problem will crop up again with the next set of tenants, who might not be as willing to endure 2 months of hell to ensure that they give adequate notice.

Most of us got into this business because we realized it gives us the ability to make money while helping others. And neither should come at the expense of the other.

Have a good one!

JohnS

 

[invst4profit]

My advice was based on the fact that I do not believe the neighbourhood will likely get rid of this problem for a very long time and the business, unless he sells, still has to survive.
I also operate on the bases of treating all tenants the same, I help in whatever way I can when necessary but do what I have to to insure I receive monies owed. Two distinctly different sides of the business.

Yes the problem will continue with the next tenant but I do not see what that has to do with dealing with the present tenant. Dealing with the mad man from the north maybe but not the tenant. They have a lease, they owe money.
Although there are many options to financially resolve the problem they all involve the present tenant paying the rent, whether she lives there or not, until a new tenant is found..That seems obvious to me.

I also considered the fact that the problem tenant, according to the information provided, has never hurt anyone. It does not seem to be his modus operandi. Maybe not that important but I did consider it.

 

[EdRenkema]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Aug 3 2009, 08:39 PM) As far as Paul`s comments are concerned if you want to let her walk that is definitely your decision but consider that in making a decision to move, which in her case is the correct decision, she is still morally obligated to uphold here financial commitment to you.
Putting my family first, in a situation such as this, would not excuse me from the commitment I have made to a LL or anyone else I owed money to.


My tenants are not walking on their financial obligations, they do not need to be `leaned` on, their lives are a living hell. They never spend any time outdoors even though I landscaped the back yard this spring, the crazy guy actually comes out back and taunts them over the fence. Paul is right on, he is running wild and feels he can`t be touched. As strange as this sounds I can personally relate and empathize.
The problem guy is not a tenant, no he hasn`t hurt anyone - physically and we don`t want to wait for that to happen.
Whether I like it or not this is my problem if I own the property, once again Paul was right on with his analysis.

 

[invst4profit]

If I understand correctly you are saying they are intending to live up to there financial commitment. You will not lose any income and therefor you do not have a financial/business issue.That was not my understanding from the beginning. When you first posted it appeared as though you were concerned with them breaking the lease and you being financially impacted by having a vacant apartment.
Your positive response to my original comments reinforced my understanding of the situation.

Since that is not the case the advice I gave was therefor not relevant to your problem.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[EdRenkema]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Aug 4 2009, 06:43 AM) If I understand correctly you are saying they are intending to live up to there financial commitment. You will not lose any income and therefor you do not have a financial/business issue.That was not my understanding from the beginning. When you first posted it appeared as though you were concerned with them breaking the lease and you being financially impacted by having a vacant apartment.
Your positive response to my original comments reinforced my understanding of the situation.

Since that is not the case the advice I gave was therefor not relevant to your problem.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.


For 2 months I will not lose any income. It will take longer than that to deal with the problem nieghbour and longer even to get it retenanted. These people cannot support 2 rents for longer than that. This will cost me additional time and money pursueing a criminal or civil suit against this `problem`. It took me 5 months to get this unit tenanted last year and these were great tenants. The problem neighbour is getting away with it.
No way I can sell now, I`ll lose 10 to 15K right off the top after closing costs.
Once again our justice system is shown to protect criminals and yes this is criminal behaviour: publicly uttering death threats and exposing yourself and profanity all in plain view of minors. And why - because this jerk dislikes immigrants.
This is worse than a problem tenant since in that case I could eventually evict.
My only recourse is to gain some allies in the neighbourhood.
It seems though everyone just wants to move away.

 

[koop]

It really looks like you`ll take a loss on this property either way, if you keep it the guy who is the problem will keep being a problem, if you sell at least its over. A wise man once said "money is a renewable resource, time is not".