Hot water heaters

billj · Mar 11, 2009

We need to replace the old 40-gallon John Woods gas water heater in a house in Edmonton. It`s about 15 years old and has trouble keeping up with the needs of two people and soon there will be four people in the house.

I`m thinking of checking out new John Woods models .. possibly a 60-gallon tank to get more efficiency and more capacity.

Any recommendations from REIN members ... or "Lessons Learned" from experience?

Can you recommend a reliable supplier in Edmonton?

.bj

REINteam · Mar 11, 2009

Hi Bill,

I played the water heater game for a few months and researched tankless vs tanked to death. At the end of the day I stuck with tanked for its tried and true design and overall cost. I just replaced my John Woods with another, same capacity, 40 gal, 3 people in the house plus 4 large dogs and I have yet to run into problems, ever(~500 and I installed it). You can get electric or gas tank models that are much more efficient than your old one - make sure the turn around time is quick (the time it takes to bring cold to hot) and that the tank is well insulated. I went back and forth for a bit on 60 gal vs 40 gal, the cost really isn`t that much higher, but I can`t see the need with 3-4 people so I stuck with 40 - extra operating costs for larger capacity...keeping more water warm.

Regards,

Ray Reuter
Client Services
Real Estate Investment Network
1-888-824-7346

vandriani · Mar 11, 2009

As an aside, I believe there are smaller electric tankless models that can be added to any sink, washing machine, whatever to aleaviate some of the strain on the hot water tank

Dan_Eisenhauer · Mar 11, 2009

Tankless water heating is fairly new to North America. However, they have been using tankless heating in Europe for YEARS. It is a tried and true system.

It is great to learn that smaller electric heaters can be installed inline. That is one way to pass along some of the water heating costs to tenants. I will be doing to research to see what else I can learn about these.

REINteam · Mar 11, 2009

Let me clarify - for me tankless simply wasn`t an option as we don`t have natural gas to our house and with electrical tankless the amperage required is high and we don`t have that kind of room in our panel. Our only other option was propane and the cost was way too high to operate despite the efficiency of tankless. If we had natural gas I may have switched, but if you think about tankless be sure to factor in the cost of ventilation (this can get pricey depending on what is required). Another cost of tankless to factor in is installation - I can install tank heaters all day long, but I`d have a pro for tankless without a doubt.

Both work, both have pros and cons, I like the simplicity of tank heaters and their efficiency has gotten better. You can do inline heaters for sinks and such, but to my knowledge the only `easy` install is for the kitchen sink (a small unit under the sink for coffee, instant hot, etc). I have no clue about inline units for laundry, my guess is these would be a good bit more involved than a simple instant hot unit for the sink.

Regards,

Ray Reuter
Client Services
Real Estate Investment Network
1-888-824-7346

invst4profit · Mar 11, 2009

Considering the high cost of on demand heaters, in the case of a rental unit, the pay back seems to be too long in comparison to the conventional water heaters. Especially considering places like Home Depot regularly have conventional heaters on sale.
In the case of a rental unit where tenants pay utilities there is no incentive to spend extra for on demand water heaters as the payback is zero.
Also keep in mind if a part such as the main controller, on a tankless, requires replacing you are looking at $400 - $500.

vandriani · Mar 12, 2009

Thinking in regards to my primary residences, I do like the fact that the tankless units are much smaller. Ray, in your opinion, would you consider a tankless unit for your primary residence? As for a rental property, I could not justify the extra cost.

REINteam · Mar 12, 2009

I do like the idea of tankless and I would have bought one if we had the natural gas hookup. Since we only have propane I couldn`t justify the operating costs...even with a high efficiency model the cost to run the unit on propane erases all savings. One thing I`ve heard from many in the industry is to stick with Rinnai if you go tankless. When I got into it the costs for me to set up tankless at home were roughly $1100 for the unit (Rinnai CI85), $500 for installation, $100 for vent kit, $100 for valve kit. However, I did get a deal through family for the unit and installation was also at a discount. Plus, if I did tankless venting our unit would have been easy...this isn`t the case for some and the costs can get pretty high with venting. I ended up getting another John Woods 40 gal electric - the new unit is more efficient (I saw a small difference in our bill) and I have yet to run out of hot water - even after washing 4 large dogs consecutively (the shephard and the lab take a lot of water just to get their coats wet!)

Regards,

Ray Reuter
Client Services
Real Estate Investment Network

feetup · Mar 12, 2009

QUOTE (vandriani @ Mar 12 2009, 12:01 PM) Thinking in regards to my primary residences, I do like the fact that the tankless units are much smaller. Ray, in your opinion, would you consider a tankless unit for your primary residence? As for a rental property, I could not justify the extra cost.

I just had my buddy install two tankless water heaters in two separate homes and the instillation was free i called enbridge and they came and removed my old ones.
I was paying $20 for rental fee from enbridge and now i am paying $31 that comes off of my credit card every month for each unit but the savings are somewhere around 200 to 300 a year per home and they run 85% efficient where a normal tank is around 60% so i am told.
These are coming from my friends Hvac business and he is do everybody i no now, it is small savings but all ads up if anybody wants more details let me no.

realfortin · Mar 12, 2009

QUOTE (luckey3 @ Mar 12 2009, 06:00 PM) I just had my buddy install two tankless water heaters in two separate homes and the instillation was free i called enbridge and they came and removed my old ones.
I was paying $20 for rental fee from enbridge and now i am paying $31 that comes off of my credit card every month for each unit but the savings are somewhere around 200 to 300 a year per home and they run 85% efficient where a normal tank is around 60% so i am told.
These are coming from my friends Hvac business and he is do everybody i no now, it is small savings but all ads up if anybody wants more details let me no.

Well, if the cost is 31$ a month installed, that`s 372. If the savings are, in the middle of the range, say 250, then it only costs you 122 a year, so roughly 10$ to rent a hot water system. It gives you peace of mind and free maintenance.

billf · Mar 12, 2009

Hi,

In Ontario you will get $500 back from the government through the eco-energy audit as well for a rental. A lot of the tankless rental companies are offering the audit free with a 10 year lease. By renting you get $500 back on top of the $300 you save per year on gas, and after 10 years it is yours if it is still running. I still would not do this in a rental with utilities included though, endless hot water=endless usage, get the smallest tank available.

Bill F

housingrental · Mar 12, 2009

I have no personal experience but have been warned by a few workers not to use them as they have a very high failure / breakdown rate and are costly to deal with.. Dan do you have any knowledge of this happening? Or can anyone else comment on the accuracy of that or if that`s not the case ?

QUOTE (Dan_Eisenhauer @ Mar 11 2009, 02:35 PM) Tankless water heating is fairly new to North America. However, they have been using tankless heating in Europe for YEARS. It is a tried and true system.

It is great to learn that smaller electric heaters can be installed inline. That is one way to pass along some of the water heating costs to tenants. I will be doing to research to see what else I can learn about these.

ChrisDavies · Mar 12, 2009

I`ve delt with a couple when I lived in the UK, and the older models can be very difficult to deal with as a user, while the new ones are much better. They take a little getting used to, but I`d have no problems living with one now!

C

billj · Mar 13, 2009

Wow ... This sparked lots of good discussion. Thank you.

I looked into tankless and decided to stick with a traditional tank water heater mostly because of the water temperature issues I found in many reviews I found on the internet. Tankless seems take a bit of adjusting of water temperature expectations and associated habits.

.bj

stevestein · Mar 13, 2009

QUOTE (billj @ Mar 13 2009, 09:00 AM) Wow ... This sparked lots of good discussion. Thank you.

I looked into tankless and decided to stick with a traditional tank water heater mostly because of the water temperature issues I found in many reviews I found on the internet. Tankless seems take a bit of adjusting of water temperature expectations and associated habits.

.bj

hi there i own a furnace company and i would neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr go with a tankless water heater. especially in a rental unit where the tenants pay the gas bill. initial cost is atleast triple or more than a tank heater, the cost for repairs will be costly, reliablity isnt as good, they need maintenance 2 or 3 times per year(you need to flush out the unit with vinager and water),and mostly when you run more than one water tap or anything that uses hot water than the unit will loose water pressure after 2 or 3 there will be no pressure can you imagine trying to get your tenants to work with a system like that. also have you ever heard of someone having any problems with a regular water tank? not to often