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Investing in Grande Prairie and Peace River . . .?

AugustAssets

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I was just wondering if anyone has any insight into the Real Estate market in Grande Prairie and Peace River?

I have been asked to invest in these areas and was looking for some feed back.



Thank you!



Nina

August Assets

[email protected]

780-645-0757
 

bizaro86

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Grande Prairie's economy is highly levered to the natural gas industry (distinct from oil).



I'd consider whether you thing natural gas prices are going to recover. If they don't, drilling in the area will slow down even more. Right now companies are finishing multi-year contracts they signed before prices went down, and drilling wells to prevent their lands from expiring, if prices don't improve, those reasons will become less and less a factor, and drilling will decline even more.



That could have seriously negative effects on employment/migration in the area. That doesn't make real estate there a bad idea (if gas prices do go back up, the economy there will take off) but it's something to think about.



Regards,



Michael
 

Thomas Beyer

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Peace River = oil sands (and maybe a new nuclear power plant) .. plus oil/gas servicing



GP = gas only !



All things being equal PR is better .. but if gas takes off GP is better !



Will gas prices take off .. likely nt .. but will rise slowly ..



GP is OK if you can cash-flow with a 20% vacancy at realistic rent levels .. say $900 for a 2 BR and $1000 for a 3BR and $1200 for a house !



Why not Edmonton & region ? Far more diversity .. similar prices .. higher rents !
 

mstrim

Mario Strim
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Hi Nina,



When I joined REIN 4 years ago I did a lot of research and followed REIN's strategies very strictly. After a lot of my own research including talking to experienced REIN members who had impressive portfolios in Grande Prairie, I decided Grande Prairie as the place to invest for me. I purchased both sides of a duplex in a newer community called Lakeland. As REIN recommends, I put a 20% down payment with my own cash (80% LTV) and with the rents at the time, it definitely met the 8-10% rule. Upon purchase in Spring of 2007, Grande Prairie was the #2 position in Alberta's Top 10 Towns Research Report put out by REIN, finding renter's was easy, cash flow was incredible, and this new world of owning rental property was fantastic. Then things changed.



Looking back if I were to turn back time, I would not have invested in Grande Prairie for the following reasons;



1. It is difficult to manage if you don't live in GP (I live in Calgary, AB). You must take an active role in your properties. Check previous REIN posts by GP investors for property management issues.



2. REIN's predictions and outlook was wrong on many accounts including Don's predictions of natural gas prices which plays an important role in the GP economy (see Spring 2007 REIN Meeting CD's). GP fell to the 8th position 1.5 years later on the Top 10 Towns Report and I would suspect it has fallen off the map since the time of the last report. This is not a slant towards REIN as I have learned a great deal from the REIN team, just simply a fact.



3. Property values have plummeted precipitously.



4. Vacancy rates have skyrocketed.



5. Rent has declined significantly and therefore cash flow has suffered.



Having mentioned some of those less than stellar aspects of Grande Prairie over the past few years, I will say that I have never found it difficult to find tenants, even when the vacancy rate was at it's highest. I still have positive cash flow, although it is not as significant as it once was. With the prices of similar duplexes that I purchased in Grande Prairie being $35,000 - 40,000 less, and knowing what the current rental rate is, I am positive you could make positive cash flow. The unknown question is, what does the future of Grande Prairie hold?



I think that investing in larger centres such as Edmonton or Calgary that are not relying predominantly on gas for example but are multifaceted, it makes for less drastic swings in the rental property business.



I would like to know what some of the experienced REIN members such as Thomas Beyer, Don Campbell, etc. thoughts are for someone in my position. Any thoughts would be appreciated.



Kind Regards,



Mario
 

bizaro86

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If you're looking at investing based on oilsands projects in an area, check out the following graphic produced by the Alberta Gov't. It maps every producing, not producing, proposed and under construction oilsands plant in the province, giving you a feel for what areas are benefiting.



http://www.energy.alberta.ca/LandAccess/pdfs/OilSands_Projects.pdf



Most of the producing projects in the Peace River oilsands are primary production (no heat/steam) which has the dual disadvantages for real estate investors of requiring less labour to build/operate (no steam plants) and producing less of the oil. That means less jobs and less money for the region. Also, a number of the thermal projects in the area haven't worked out, although there are some very smart people working very hard to figure out that puzzle. If they get it, that region WILL boom in a very similar way to Fort Mac.



Regards,



Michael
 

Stephen1151

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You may not get a reply. Grande Prairie is the Elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. Thoes who bought there in 2007 will most likly have to wait until the mortgage gets payed down before you can sell and break even...other than that plan on holding a very long time.
 

MonteDobson

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We've invested in GP since 2006, and it hasn't been a lot of fun to say the least. Values are down 20-30% and rents are down 30-50% since when we bought. At the time GP was #2 town in AB to invest in. People were literally living in tents etc as it was booming so extreme. Then the music stopped!



I think GP is in for a recovery, albeit it'll take a while yet as gas prices will remain low as supply is high. I have noticed things starting to pick up in GP, and I am hopeful for a strong recovery...at least to the values that we purchased at. Property mgt has also been interesting to say the least, but we seem to have that handled now.



Investing in GP is not for the faint of heart. Go in with LARGE cash reserves, prepared for vacancies and have a long term outlook. It is a very cyclical market and property mgt is key.



The ironic thing about it is that I live in SK, and if I would have kept our money closer to home and invested locally (ie. Regina or Saskatoon), I would have more than doubled our initial investment in the same timeline. But AB was booming and the REIN research showed that it was a good place to invest (at the time). I don't regret our decision to invest there, but I likely wouldn't have entered that market knowing what I know now.



As for Peace River I don't know much about that market but once again, a small market so apt for large market swings. I am sure both towns will do well going forward, but make sure you are well prepared before you enter.



We will be exiting GP at the next sign of strength in RE values...hopefully within the next 18-24 months. It is highly dependent on natural gas and who knows how that will play out??
 

bizaro86

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[quote user=MonteDobson]We will be exiting GP at the next sign of strength in RE values...


I've heard a number of investors say similar things, which suggests to me that prices in Grande Prarie will be held down for some time, as any price increases will be met by a wave of new supply of people getting out of properties they don't want/can't afford/regret buying, etc.



Regards,



Michael
 

OurRealtor

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[quote user=bizaro86][quote user=MonteDobson]We will be exiting GP at the next sign of strength in RE values...


I've heard a number of investors say similar things, which suggests to me that prices in Grande Prarie will be held down for some time, as any price increases will be met by a wave of new supply of people getting out of properties they don't want/can't afford/regret buying, etc.



Regards,



Michael


In the breakeven scenario; Are you suggesting we will continue holding at this moment and be patient not to sell now.
 

bizaro86

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[quote user=OurRealtor]In the breakeven scenario; Are you suggesting we will continue holding at this moment and be patient not to sell now



Far be it from me to tell you whether to sell your real estate. I'm just presenting a couple of ideas that you could draw your own conclusions from. It really depends on your individual situation and whether you think you have a better use for you equity than what you'll get from your current investment going forward.



Regards,



Michael
 
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