Investing in US housing

Courtenay

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Registered
Oct 8, 2008
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0
#1
Hey guys,

I`m interested in knowing more about investing in the US housing market. Has anyone done this? Does anyone have links to good information?

I can`t seem to get a handle on the foreclosure situation. With so many homes vacant where are all the people living? It would seem that many previous owners would now be in the rental market, but in Las Vegas (as one example) the market is flooded with homes for sale and the vacancy rate is average. Where are people living?
 
#2
QUOTE (Courtenay @ Jan 24 2009, 11:24 AM) Hey guys,

I`m interested in knowing more about investing in the US housing market. Has anyone done this? Does anyone have links to good information?

I can`t seem to get a handle on the foreclosure situation. With so many homes vacant where are all the people living? It would seem that many previous owners would now be in the rental market, but in Las Vegas (as one example) the market is flooded with homes for sale and the vacancy rate is average. Where are people living?

maybe they are doubling up with family, friends, and roommates?
 

dannielsen

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Registered
Sep 11, 2007
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Red Deer, Alberta
#3
My dad has apartment buildings, condo’s & town houses in the U.S. They are all primarily in Phoenix and SE states with a few in Texas and California. From talking to him, he has anywhere from 20-50% vacancy and according to him he has better than average vacancies than the market. I cant tell you where everyone has gone, but he is still buying down there with 65k per door and he is cash flowing. I would not recommend going anywhere near the US market unless you have some deep pockets to ride out the vacancies and the srewy tenant landlord laws that differ dramatically between each state. Also once you get in the market down there it is extremely hard to get your money out to Canada, not to mention the exchange rate now.

But on the other hand I enjoy looking at their markets from time to time and I have to be careful not to get sucked in by speculation and cheap prices.

Dan Nielsen
 

Bungee

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Registered
Jan 20, 2009
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Waialua, Hawaii
#4
Hi Courtenay,
I`m actually due to move to the US in the spring, so I`m taking courses here in Canada as well as the US to understand each markets.
Anyways in a course i took a few weeks ago our teacher was from the US and he said the worst places (however all Canadian always think because of the tourism, that they are best) are Vegas (Nevada) Florida, and stay out of Michigan, and all the North Eastern states.
However he strongly recommended to look into Dallas, TX and Austin, TX but to stay out of Houston.

Where are the people going? I don`t know either, they must be renting somewhere, or doubling up like mentioned.

PS- They also mentioned that Arizona is not a very wise place to invest either.

Obviously that`s one mans opionion, but he is a successful REI and has been in it with his brothers for 5 years.
 
Oct 10, 2007
4,733
14
38
Waterloo
#5
In certain markets:
1) Huge amount of new builds... if you aded 2000 new units and there`s not inflow to support it then...
2) Declining population - they`ve gone to a different town
3) Shared accommodations - moved in with family or friends... slower to move out.. etc..
 

Courtenay

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Registered
Oct 8, 2008
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#6
QUOTE (housingrental @ Jan 24 2009, 06:59 PM) In certain markets:
1) Huge amount of new builds... if you aded 2000 new units and there`s not inflow to support it then...
2) Declining population - they`ve gone to a different town
3) Shared accommodations - moved in with family or friends... slower to move out.. etc..


Thanks for the input. Has anyone else bought in the states? Is anyone looking at buying there?

It seems like there`s a fair bit of coverage on Canadians buying in the states, but not much talk of it here on REIN Space. The media would make it seem like a buyers market for Canadians, but not much talk of it here, where there are a lot of RE investors.

Regarding the dollar, it shouldn`t really matter as it`s relative right? if our dollar is at $.80 and you sell with the dollar at about the same you`re getting the same exchange but you may put more in up front. If you buy a house at 80K USD (100K CAD) and sell for $160USD you sell for 200k CAD. I only use those numbers for convenience.

Someone mentioned to stay out of Arizona, but most things I`ve read have Arizona as a hot spot to buy.

I still haven`t been able to wrap my head around this and it seems like there are deals to be had, but I just don`t know where to start or what to believe.

Eventually as the US market rebounds one would think that the extra builds would be in demand as they were a year or so ago, right?

Any other thoughts?
 
Oct 10, 2007
4,733
14
38
Waterloo
#7
There`s a reason why there`s not much talk of it on REIN space... for most investors purchasing in the states doesn`t make any sense:
a) Dollar - You`re missing something .. currency changes add an uncontrollable risk... if the USD has dropped XX% relative to Canadian you`ll be absorbing that loss whether through ongoing income or when you sell the asset and convert ... so you buy could buy a house for 80k USD (100K CAD) and sell for $160KUSD and you can end up with $100K CAD NOT $200K CAD
b) There`s TONS of complications to investing in USA including ZZZ quality area`s where you`ll have a hard time collecting even 50% of rent, have your house vandalized, withholding tax, liability issues, managing from afar and higher state taxes...
c) Absorption of new builds - Not necessarily... Population flows and changes in consumption propensity will mean there`s certain area`s where this won`t happen for a long time.. See Detroit over the last 40 years as an example...
d) There`s money to be made in Canada

If you`re looking to buy a second home where you`ll live for 5 months a year for the next 30 years then it can make sense from a lifestyle choice but as an investment only if you have deep pockets so you can live with the downside and can do something substantial enough to put a quality local team together.. but for the vast majority of Canadians purchasing real estate in the states makes little sense...
 
#9
We own a 300+ unit apartment complex 1/2 north of Dallas in Denton, TX. OK results so far .. but not (yet) WOW !
US purchases in general: high risk for the un-informed .. OK in some economically strong sub-markets like AZ or TX if you know what you are doing and have a 6+ year view .. and while prices for apartment buildings are in the 40`s to 60`s/door for decent assets there are many issues such as: cash-flow is not all that great, higher interest on commercial mortgages than in Canada (to the point of inability of getting finance for some assets or some areas) .. taxation is higher than in Canada, tough to expatriate $s out of US tax efficiently, many foreclosures, tough mortgage market, different landlord tenants laws that differ widely by state .. but the upside is INFLATION so any asset you will buy will go up in US $s eventually ! .. but will it in Canadian $s ??

Inflation will be huge going forward in the US: Why ? As long as we live in democracies, with elected officials that have to respond to "the people" stating "bail me out", "build me a new hospital", "provide me with cheap child care", "lift my RRSP savings, i.e. the stock market", "don`t let the car industry fail" we spend and spend and thus, to make the pain easier we print more money to deflate the debt. Money supply is up significantly and they even stopped publishing it. Estimates are around 17% to much much higher like 50%+ in 2008.

So, this means that either interest rates will rise significantly or the US dollar will plummet and since high interest rates kill the economy the US dollar will slide.

The money supply shock: If $6T to $8T is sitting in money market funds plus a few more $100`s of billions (of bailout money) on bank’s balance sheets, sooner or later people (or banks) will realize that a 1% or 2% interest bonus isn`t all that great and they’ll invest it in mortgages, bonds, equity, real estate, stocks or spend it !!

This is EXACTLY what the US government is doing right now: flush out the $s into the economy thus forcing real estate values up or at least flat and spending or investing by massively devaluing the $ !!! In fact this model is being embraced by a number of large countries, including China and most European nations. This is the main reason why we have put our US purchases which we had envisioned as recently as this fall ON HOLD for the time being, as the exchange rate risk is significant.


However, since many other nations are doing the same the US dollar might not get hammered quite as much relative to the Euro or Yen or Swiss Franc but money relative to REAL assets will get less and less valuable so things REAL will go up: gold, real estate, oil, nickel, uranium, ... and that is called inflation!
 

KevinSolomon

0
Registered
May 19, 2014
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0
6
#10
[quote user=housingrental]There's a reason why there's not much talk
of it on REIN space... for most investors purchasing in the states
doesn't make any sense:

a) Dollar - You're missing something ..
currency changes add an uncontrollable risk... if the USD has dropped
XX% relative to Canadian you'll be absorbing that loss whether through
ongoing income or when you sell the asset and convert ... so you buy
could buy a house for 80k USD (100K CAD) and sell for $160KUSD and you
can end up with $100K CAD NOT $200K CAD NOPE

b) There's TONS of
complications to investing in USA including ZZZ quality area's where
you'll have a hard time collecting even 50% of rent, have your house
vandalized, withholding tax, liability issues, managing from afar and
higher state taxes... NOPE

c) Absorption of new builds - Not
necessarily... Population flows and changes in consumption propensity
will mean there's certain area's where this won't happen for a long
time.. See Detroit over the last 40 years as an example... NOPE

d) There's money to be made in Canada NOPE




If
you're looking to buy a second home where you'll live for 5 months a
year for the next 30 years then it can make sense from a lifestyle
choice NOPE
but as an investment only if you have deep pockets so you can
live with the downside and can do something substantial enough to put a
quality local team together.. but for the vast majority of Canadians
purchasing real estate in the states makes little sense...







Well said Adam. Apparently wrong on all fronts.
 
#11
Buying real estate in 2009 or 2010 in either US or Canada would have made a ton of sense in almost ANY city with jobs, more so in hindsight in some US cities as they dropped so much in price from their peak in 2006/2007.



Keep in mind though that in the US mortgages are about 1% more expensive than in Canada and that a sale of an asset, if held in a corporation, commands a 35% tax as opposed to a roughly 20% capital gains tax only in Canada.



As such, the US asset must have a better CAP rate on purchase and a higher gain on sale to get the same after tax yield, even if the currency risk is eliminated.



Having said that, if you had bought in 2009 or 2010 in US $s as a Canadian (at roughly par) in select US growth markets you would have made more money than buying even in W-Canada, as there was a higher gain and a 10% currency lift.



As of this writing, fall 2014, the US growth story is not as clear anymore vs. select Canadian growth markets, but both markets make sense for the well researched investor !



We have done well in Texas and W-Canada assets since 2007 ... very well in most markets !
 

KevinSolomon

0
Registered
May 19, 2014
44
0
6
#12
[quote user=ThomasBeyer]Having said that, if you had bought in 2009 or 2010 in US $s as a Canadian (at roughly par) in select US growth markets you would have made more money than buying even in W-Canada, as there was a higher gain and a 10% currency lift.





/agree!
 

Rickson9

0
Registered
Oct 27, 2009
1,210
82
48
#13
[quote user="ThomasBeyer"]Inflation will be huge going forward in the US: Why ? As long as we live in democracies, with elected officials that have to respond to "the people" stating "bail me out", "build me a new hospital", "provide me with cheap child care", "lift my RRSP savings, i.e. the stock market", "don't let the car industry fail" we spend and spend and thus, to make the pain easier we print more money to deflate the debt. Money supply is up significantly and they even stopped publishing it. Estimates are around 17% to much much higher like 50%+ in 2008.

So, this means that either interest rates will rise significantly or the US dollar will plummet and since high interest rates kill the economy the US dollar will slide.

The money supply shock: If $6T to $8T is sitting in money market funds plus a few more $100's of billions (of bailout money) on bank’s balance sheets, sooner or later people (or banks) will realize that a 1% or 2% interest bonus isn't all that great and they’ll invest it in mortgages, bonds, equity, real estate, stocks or spend it !!

This is EXACTLY what the US government is doing right now: flush out the $s into the economy thus forcing real estate values up or at least flat and spending or investing by massively devaluing the $ !!! In fact this model is being embraced by a number of large countries, including China and most European nations. This is the main reason why we have put our US purchases which we had envisioned as recently as this fall ON HOLD for the time being, as the exchange rate risk is significant.

However, since many other nations are doing the same the US dollar might not get hammered quite as much relative to the Euro or Yen or Swiss Franc but money relative to REAL assets will get less and less valuable so things REAL will go up: gold, real estate, oil, nickel, uranium, ... and that is called inflation!

[/quote]

This is a good example of why I don't use macroeconomic reasoning when investing.

Wrong almost everywhere.