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Investment Proposal: Good or Bad Idea?

Trizzy

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Hi there,

My name is Tristan, and I am a first time poster. I have been frequenting these forums for a few months now. I have been intrigued by the proposition of investing in real estate for quite some time, and it seems now would be the most advantageous time to invest. I`m currently reading The Canadian Landlord`s Guide, and intend to purchase Don Campbell`s book in the near future. I am always looking to further my knowledge within this field.

I have several questions to ask myself and others in this particular field before I commit to buying anything. I have a few different routes I am hypothesizing - a few of which I am uncertain of their likelihood of success. This is where I need council.

But first, some information on my position and what I expect to achieve.

I am 23, I have a modest full-time income, with the hopes of owning my own home and managing several income properties. I eventually intend to be an entrepreneurial home inspector, obtain Registered Home Inspector status and strengthen my position within the real estate market. I currently do not own a primary residence, as I am still living at home. My credit is meager, but all my bills are paid on time.

Now on to business. My first potential business acquisition involves my father as a business partner, and the area of interest is Cambridge/KW. He has agreed to use a HELOC to secure a mortgage, as my equity/professional insecurity likely cannot establish a mortgage. The deal I think that would best suit my father and I`s goals is after we compound and calculate our numbers, my father receives all the positive cash flow from renters, as he requires income towards his pending retirement. We pay a minimal deposit(5-10%), divided equally. When we decide to sell the estate(which has hopefully appreciated), I receive a higher margin on my return(say, 60%/40%) to compensate for my loss on the positive cash flow.

Now before you critique my intended plan, understand that my father and I have different financial objectives. He is looking for the positive cash flow, where I can afford to invest very little in a deposit and bank on the equity of the house in years to come. Obviously, for all of this to work, the numbers must work. We have time to do the exact math and find the ideal location/tenants, as we will likely purchase this invest in the spring. Management will be a shared responsibility, and the property I am keen on at the moment would be a brand new condo. I look forward to the peace of mind the 7-year Tarion warranty brings.

There is one issue I foresee - Repairs. As my father will receive all the positive cash flow, it would be counter-intuitive for myself to pay for inevitable repairs out of my pocket. Any ideas on how we could potentially compromise in a situation such as that?

My second potential endeavor is to do things the traditional way - solo. I fully intend to purchase my own estate to rent, however I`m worried that if I were to become an entrepreneur, I would have a hard time getting approved for a mortgage. What do lenders look for when accepting applicants? Also, I will eventually want my own property as I previously mentioned, and how difficult is it to acquire a second mortgage? Are their any stipulations involved when already in an existing premature mortgage agreement?

I apologize for the long-winded essay. I have had time to read and observe, but I figure I need some questions of my own answering. Any/All input and suggestions are greatly appreciated. Please keep the comments constructive, as I am still trying to absorb the enormity and complexity that is real estate.

Thanks.

Tristan
 

housingrental

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Hi Tristan,

Repairs costs should come from the condo`s rent. Most people would sturcture this so that your father takes the cash flow from the property ....which is generally considered any money after repairs and all other expenses are paid for.

As there is risks associated with a rental property (such as vacancy, percent of rent collected, damages, extra wear and tear, advertising expenses, harder / costlier to finance) it might be a better option for you to purchase your own home first before getting an investment property. Perhaps there`s a way to structure this so your father derives benefit from co-signing a loan for you... such as you guarantee to purchase his stake in house at an %X increase in X years... or he provides to you a high interest loan... etc..

And then have an investment property as the second future property?

Lender`s generally like to see two to three years of consistent income on your tax returns for self-employed, potential housing costs less than 1/3 of income, and total debt service costs in addition to housing costs only slighter higher. (40% of income ? )
 

manojsingh

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Hi Tristan,
Congratulation for your first property and first post. Welcome to world of real estate.My suggestion go through this forum there are tons of material .With in one two year you will be ok infront of bank also. Work with some senior REIN members and you will learn a lot.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (Trizzy @ Nov 7 2009, 12:48 AM) ..I currently do not own a primary residence, as I am still living at home. My credit is meager, but all my bills are paid on time.

Now on to business. My first potential business acquisition involves my father as a business partner, ...
Why not buy a house for yourself with rooms to sub-let ?

reasons:
a) you win as any gain on the house is TAX FREE
b) you gain as you have people support your mortgage payment, possibly allowing you to life for free
c) you gain as you will leave the house .. and learn valuable life experiences .. [I would go even as far as saying that unless you leave your home your are very likely not fit as a landlord or investor !]
d) your father gains as he has an independent son .. that gets wealthier by the day

now here comes the father thing:

e) get a loan from your father, possibly as high as 100% of the purchase price of teh home. So rather than paying the bank 4%/year you pay it to dad ! Or get a 50% loan-to-value loan from bank and a 6% loan for the remaining 35-50% from dad at 6% ..

A win/win for everyone concerned !

...

Option e) also work with a house that you do not live in ..
 

GaryMcGowan

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Thomas` idea is a great one.
I believe your first investment should be done with someone experienced and that has a track recored of real estate investing. Don`t be shy to ask questions and get educated before you take the plunge. With the right guidance you will be very successful in real estate. As it was mentioned before search through the forum and you will start your learning.
 

Trizzy

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Thanks everyone for the comments. I truly do appreciate you taking time to read and respond.

I suppose I may need to reconsider my priorities, as I do require my own primary residence.

It is an interesting concept; I will bounce the idea off my father and see what he makes of it. Thanks for the idea.

Please don`t hesitate to introduce other options.
 

Nir

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Tristan, your first priority should be to generate passive income. sorry but your father "killed" the deal by expecting to "receive all the positive cash flow from renters".
therefore, I like Thomas ideas to return around 5% to your father. I`m worried your father will not agree though. Also, make sure you understand the different cashflow calculation methodologies, some logic issues arised. property type should be re-evaluated with respect to your (and your father`s!) cashflow goals. GL!
 

housedoc

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Very good!
A multi-unit (2+) property will get you a place to live, and enroll you in Landlording 101.
Will the 1st property be considered your PR or dad`s rental?
Make sure your expectations and responsibilities are clear regarding the finances, management and exit strategy.
It is not difficult to ruin a good relationship in these situations.
 

Trizzy

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QUOTE (housedoc @ Nov 8 2009, 05:55 AM) Very good!
Will the 1st property be considered your PR or dad`s rental?

The first property I`m thinking will be my PR. I am contemplating what others are suggesting by taking a full or partial loan through my father and/or getting an LTV of 50% or so from the bank.

The more I think about it, the less I am enthralled with the idea of a business partnership with family. Could open a can of worms..
 

invst4profit

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I would also advise staying away from condos if you are looking for cash flow. After fees and all other expenses there is slim to no cash flow and not uncommon to have negative cash flow. With condos you should expect total expenses to be at least 50% of your rental income.

If I were you I would find a house of your own and rent out rooms. If you do this with a shared kitchen and bath you do not fall under the RTA, at least in Ontario, which allows you to get damage deposits etc. and evict without interference from the LTB.
 

Trizzy

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QUOTE (invst4profit @ Nov 9 2009, 07:08 AM) I would also advise staying away from condos if you are looking for cash flow. After fees and all other expenses there is slim to no cash flow and not uncommon to have negative cash flow. With condos you should expect total expenses to be at least 50% of your rental income.

If I were you I would find a house of your own and rent out rooms. If you do this with a shared kitchen and bath you do not fall under the RTA, at least in Ontario, which allows you to get damage deposits etc. and evict without interference from the LTB.

So if what you say is true about Condos, why would any logical person ever invest in them? Simply just for resale? I could use some elaboration.

I am not keen on the idea of renting out rooms within a shared house. I see firsthand the quirks and liabilities that are associated with having tenants. You share your appliances, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. Not to mention any potential conflicting living habits. Nightmare waiting to happen. I also like the advantages of living independantly; otherwise why not continue to live at home?

However, I do see the logic in having an attached in-law suite. Assistance with your mortgage payments, ability to observe your property and tenants regularly, meanwhile having your freedoms without intrusion.

..Unless there is something I fail to comprehend.
 

housedoc

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QUOTE (Trizzy @ Nov 9 2009, 09:05 PM) So if what you say is true about Condos, why would any logical person ever invest in them? Simply just for resale? I could use some elaboration.

I am not keen on the idea of renting out rooms within a shared house. I see firsthand the quirks and liabilities that are associated with having tenants. You share your appliances, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. Not to mention any potential conflicting living habits. Nightmare waiting to happen. I also like the advantages of living independantly; otherwise why not continue to live at home?

However, I do see the logic in having an attached in-law suite. Assistance with your mortgage payments, ability to observe your property and tenants regularly, meanwhile having your freedoms without intrusion.

..Unless there is something I fail to comprehend.

It`s good that you`re thinking it through, but you gotta know that being away from home with room-mates is MUCH different than living at home. You should probably try it.

Make sure your expectations are realistic. A little sacrifice in the beginning regarding your living arrangements may be the best or only way to get in, and can really pay off . Maybe you have friends or family that need a place to live?

Unfortunately, your condo idea is unlikely to perform the way you`re thinking and is heavily reliant on low rates and appreciation.
If you`re only looking at 5% from dad, why bother?
 

housingrental

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In Toronto area speculation that the condo will appreciate...
Also some are barely cash flow positive if everything goes okay... ie they spend no money on repairs... and condo fees don`t increase... and they self manage and don`t pay themselves anything... and they have a mortgage at 4% interest... and its fully occupied all the time... and they always collect rent 100% of the time..... Ie hard to do consistently over long periods of time!

QUOTE (Trizzy @ Nov 9 2009, 09:05 PM) So if what you say is true about Condos, why would any logical person ever invest in them? Simply just for resale? I could use some elaboration.

I am not keen on the idea of renting out rooms within a shared house. I see firsthand the quirks and liabilities that are associated with having tenants. You share your appliances, bathrooms, kitchens, etc. Not to mention any potential conflicting living habits. Nightmare waiting to happen. I also like the advantages of living independantly; otherwise why not continue to live at home?

However, I do see the logic in having an attached in-law suite. Assistance with your mortgage payments, ability to observe your property and tenants regularly, meanwhile having your freedoms without intrusion.

..Unless there is something I fail to comprehend.
 

invst4profit

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What the others said pretty well covers condos. They are more on the side of speculation than investing. Many that have them bought pre construction with no concept of the costs associated with a rental or they had it as a PR with a low mortgage and decided to rented it out when they bought a house.

I can concur on the situation of shared accommodations but having a inlaw or basement suite can be just as intrusive especially when you have a bad tenant you can not evict.
Becoming a LL has a steep learning curve but the advantage of renting out part of your PR is if it turns out you hate being a LL it is easier to get out of the business.
 

Trizzy

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Thanks all for the fair warning. Didn`t realize it is that difficult to make positive cash flow out of Condos.

I am still unsure as to whether to invest in the in-law/basement suite or get a duplex/triplex and just tough it out. I suppose once I am comfortable landlording, I could always move out into a separate PR w/ in-law. Also, duplex`s/triplex`s I assume generate more positive income as it handles more occupancy.

So many variables, and so many alternatives. I have nervous energy trying to decide..
 

invst4profit

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Whether a building makes money depends on the price you pay and the rent you receive. Try to buy a building where the monthly rent is 1% of the purchase price or better. Hard to do but in this business the keys to success are hard work, patience and making your profit when you buy. It`s OK to speculate on Appreciation but if you want to stay in business you need positive cash flow.

The advantage of a multi unit is you lessen the financial pain when the inevitable vacancy comes along.

Spend some time learning the art of negotiation. Most people think there are plenty of good deals available but to be consistently successful you don`t find good deals you negotiate them.
 
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