Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!

Personal properties VS Becoming incorporated

albainstar

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
119
I am a self employed business owner and we are incorporated. I could see it made sence for that.
I am about to purchase my second investment property and plan on a third before March.

I see lots of people on here have thier own investing company.

What are the advantages/disadvantages to continuing as I am (properties in my name) - VS incorporating?

Ie now I can get mortgages easily with self employed no income verification style with 10 percent down.
would it become harder to get a mortgage as a corporation? - esp a corporation less than a year old

would it be better for capital gains - ie would we be able to use the 750K capital gains exemption on capital gains on realestate if it is in an incorporated company?

ETC
 

MikeMcCrae

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 3, 2007
Messages
489
The simple answer is "it depends" Sorry nothing is easy. Some lenders will not do rentals in company names and some won`t do it in personal names. I have some in a company and some personally. If you buy in a company name they will require personal guarantees. As far as taxes go again it depends on your own situation. You will need an accountant that knows your whole storey to help with that. Talk with all the professionals on your team to get the answers that pertain to your situation.
 

albainstar

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
119
you are right it always depends, however i dont have a team
i live in fort mc murray and it is hard enough getting an appointment anywhere and then they are unqualified people who really cant offer any reall knowledgable advice
style_emoticons
I dont think ftmc has even 1 CFP
thus i am posting here in hopes of some senarios so can better gauge myself
 

Peter

0
REIN Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
58
QUOTE (albainstar @ Nov 22 2007, 04:54 PM)
I am a self employed business owner and we are incorporated. I could see it made sence for that.

I am about to purchase my second investment property and plan on a third before March.



I see lots of people on here have thier own investing company.



What are the advantages/disadvantages to continuing as I am (properties in my name) - VS incorporating?



Ie now I can get mortgages easily with self employed no income verification style with 10 percent down.

would it become harder to get a mortgage as a corporation? - esp a corporation less than a year old



would it be better for capital gains - ie would we be able to use the 750K capital gains exemption on capital gains on realestate if it is in an incorporated company?





ETC






Generally speaking, you are going to have more lending options and more favorable terms if you put the mortgages in your personal name. While several "A" lenders do offer financing in corporate names they tend to have stipulations (ie must be a holding company, not an operating company, LTV may be reduced and fewer product options......) most "B" lenders, especially in Alberta, will allow if not require mortgages in corporate names. These lenders tend to be quite a bit more expensive.



It will come down to the strength of your application. If you need to qualify with the "B" type lender, you can put the mtg in your company name quite easily. If you are able to qualify with an "A" lender, have your broker explain what the different terms would be if you put the mtg in your personal vs corporate name.



To get the non income qualifying, 10% down you are likely looking at some pretty pricey financing. Having a corporation won't make much difference to the financing - the lenders will be looking at your personal credit/net worth when decisioning. Many self employed clients think that they need non income qualifying mortgages - often, they are surprised. Any good banker or broker after review of your application should be able to give you some suggestions as to financing alternatives within the overall context of your investing plan.
 

BobHudson

0
Registered
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
173
I hit the "it depends" in spades!

My accountant, who is a real estate investor, proposed two incorporated companies - a holding company for my wife that would own all the property and deal with the banks; and an operational property management company for me that would deal with tenants and bills. (She got the better deal
style_emoticons
). This was based on our investment objectives of buying multiple properties over the coming years.

My lawyer, who is also a real estate investor, counselled me against incorporating (real estate not passive income, expense write off against other income, cost of incorporating).

Now what?

The accountant offered to chat with the lawyer. Having full confidence in both, I agreed to go with the winner of the debate. The accountant won. We have two incorporated companies. That`s how the "it depends" fell in our case.

You may want to discuss it with your lawyer and your accountant. Good luck!
 

ToddStokowski

0
Registered
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
474
I agree with all the repsondents - my advice to you is to find a qualified accountant and have him/her review all your needs, goals and current situation and an answer will result.

You will not find the answer to your situation using this Forum since there is so much detail that is required before you can get the right answer for your unique set of fact.

As a side note, if your current company is accumulating cash after taxes, there are benefits of using the company to acquire properties using corporate "after tax" dollars instead of personal "after tax" dollars. Since the corporate tax rate in Alberta is 16.12%, the company has more money to invest instead of investing personal after "tax dollars" (after say 39% tax). This is just one item that a qualified accountant will discuss with you.

I purchase properties in both our company and personal - again for different reasons based on my situation. Your situation may be different.

Todd
 

SamEfford

0
Registered
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
319
Albianstar,

I also live in Fort McMurray, however I do not let geography limit me to my team members. My broker is in BC, my accountant in Ontario, and have realtors in each city we invest in. There are alot of knowledgeable professionals here in Fort McMurray, however you need to chose your team based on best fit.
 

George

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
130
Good evening,

To throw my quick comments in here (I have posted a couple of more lengthy responses previously if you`d like to do a search on the site - one was under something like "confusion about incorporating").

There are a variety of factors that your advisors should discuss with you regarding whether or not to incorporate. Some items to consider:

- flexibility
- legal concerns
- tax concerns for current, future, family situation
- business issues
- marketing implications
- financing implications

I find that people can have identical situations but because of different priorities, I will make completely different recommendations and integrate these with the thoughts of other advisors. While I am admittedly predisposed to using companies or other entities (and do so myself for the majority of my properties), I do have quite a number of clients who own their properties personally because it is right for them. Thus a real dialogue is needed with your advisors to see what is right for you.

Warm regards...

George
 

navaz

0
Registered
Joined
Nov 12, 2007
Messages
308
Here is article that I have written -the answer is it depends -but here are some factors to look at



“If I fill a short form CRA gets a chunk of money, if I fill out a long form the accountant keeps the money- but when I incorporate –all the professionals dig into my pocket book because I created a new taxpayer-a corporate entity”



This topic should be addressed by 4 professionals, a lawyer and an insurance agent to cover legal liability issues, a mortgage broker/banker to address the difficulties in obtaining commercial financing and an accountant to deal with taxation issues. When I am discussing items that should be discussed with the 3 other professionals, the lawyer, the banker and the insurance agent, I am referring to my personal experience and clients experiences –not as a professional. These pointers will help you have a decent dialogue with the other professionals so that you can make a decision for yourself.



Firstly, from a tax perspective it is important to understand the difference between active and passive income. Passive income is income earned from investments such as rental income, interest and dividend income. Active income is income from businesses that are active such as a retail store, restaurants, professional practices, developers and rental income in a corporation that has more than 5 full time employees under one corporation. The first $400,000 from these business which are Canadian Controlled Private Corporations(CCPC) are taxed at the low rate of corporate tax for the income that you leave in the corporation–around 18% depending on your province. Income from passive sources are taxed at the highest rate –around 46% depending upon your province.



As a result of this, if you are purchasing rental properties it is not advisable to incorporate. If you are a builder, land developer or a flipper, then you should consider incorporating. If you are buying multi-family buildings in Alberta –the banks will make you incorporate.



t-size:12pt;line-height:100%">My banker tells me - anytime I borrow funds in a corporation, they ask for personal guarantees – which mean the banks can come after me personally for the loan. This document is so iron tight, that even if I want to file bankruptcy, the bankers have to approve it. They will only do it if it benefits them. From a banker`s perspective, why would they risk loaning me the money if I do not have faith in my project?



Secondly, there are only a few lenders who like to work with a corporation. So you will limit the number of bankers that will deal with you. Their costs are also higher when you are dealing with commercial loans.



When I talk to my insurance agent, he tells me most of the lawsuits are frivolous and small. Buy the best liability insurance you can get of at least a million. Top this one with an umbrella policy between 5-10 Million. They have full time lawyers whose jobs are to try and get out of paying a claim. When a claim comes in, inform them immediately and they will deal with person suing you –as this person will most likely hire a lawyer on a retainer. The insurance company may try to get out of paying a claim and take the position that it is not covered in the policy-if this happens hire your own lawyer who specializes in suing insurance companies. You would like the insurance company to hire a lawyer to defend you from the lawsuit.



A lawyer will tell you-the frivolous lawsuits will stop at the door of the corporation –unless they go after you personally as a director being negligent. The difficulty with lawsuits is they take time and money. If the other party has hired a lawyer on a retainer, you have to pay your own lawyer at an hourly rate. As a result, the person with the deepest pockets can keep it going and the one without money has to settle. Who do you think will get the best deal? If such an event takes place, you would loose the equity in that property if your insurance company does not cover it.



The main disadvantage to incorporating for single family homes is the cost and complexity of maintaining and creating a corporation will be higher. Your accounting fees are higher as you will be required to keep a double entry bookkeeping system to create accurate financial statements, corporate tax returns take longer to prepare, working paper files have to be more detailed. Your insurance costs will be higher as you will be required to buy a commercial policy. Your banking costs will go up as commercial bank account fees will be higher, interest rates will be higher and the closing documentation will be higher.



There are other issues such as dealing with Capital Gains. If you own a property on your own, you sell the property and claim it as a Capital Gain, you report only half your income. If CRA disallows the capital gain – your only discussion point who is correct. You will pay interest if CRA wins. On the other hand, you own a property in a Corporation, you claim a capital gain, you are required to file a document that allows you to pay a Capital Dividend. If CRA challenges your claim for a capital gain because they think you are a flipper and they win – now you have a problem. You will have deemed to have paid a capital dividend when one did not exist hence you end up paying penalties. This is a complex issue –hence if you do not understand it –just shake your head at the complexities of a corporation.



Similar rules exist for any income you earn in a corporation. The Corporation earning rental income is taxed at the highest rate. If your Corporation has taxable income, you will be required to pay dividends to claim back Refundable Divided Tax Credit on Hand (RDTOH). Now you have to file your T5’s prior to February 28 of the following year. All these forms take time to prepare and are complex. You end up paying for them.



So at this point you can see the complexity of having a Corporation. Which one will be easier to maintain? Which one will cost you more?
 

DonCampbell

Investor, Analyst, Author, Philanthropist
Staff member
REIN Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
2,005
QUOTE (navaz @ Nov 26 2007, 10:50 AM)
Here is article that I have written -the answer is it depends -but here are some factors to look at

`If I fill a short form CRA gets a chunk of money, if I fill out a long form the accountant keeps the money- but when I incorporate `all the professionals dig into my pocket book because I created a new taxpayer-a corporate entity`




Fantastic post Navaz. It is true that the decision is not Black & White as there are many variables that play a role. Hence the value of having a great team on your side.



Thank you Navaz
 

jarrettvaughan

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
267
Navaz, that was a very helpful post. I have being trying to find out the pros and cons of this process for some time now and found you info very imformative. I appreaciate the fact that you posted the perspective of each professional. Thank you.
 

RebeccaBryan

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Messages
783
Navaz,

Awesome and very helpful post. I printed it off to have it for a reference.

Cheers!
 
Top Bottom