Taking a realtor to court.

[Fleetwoodmac]

My brother and I are taking Mum and Dad`s realtor to small claims court in BC.
My brother has been through the first hearing before a judge who determined that we did indeed have a case and our date has been set.

We are up against a crack team of lawyers funded by the Real Esate Errors and Omissions Insurance Corp.

We have no legal representation - our Uncle - once a successful realtor and a Cambridge educated lawyer - and hugely successful commercial real estate investor - who has since and sadly passed away - provided us with the use of his lawyers to get the ball rolling.

We also worked with two friends who are brilliant young lawyers who put our case together but funds have now run out so it`s "the little guy against the big corporate machine".

Interesting things we have discovered in the 4 years it has taken to get to trial:

• The average person doesn`t even know they`ve been ripped off by a realtor.
• There is virtually zero case law where a consumer or investor has taken a realtor to court.
• The REEOIC would rather throw money at legal services than see a case settled.
• Double ending a commission is often the only motivation for a realtor selling a propertyRealtors can fairly represent both parties in a transaction. Good thing a laywer can`t do that!There is no real punishment for Realtors - check BC Real Estate Council website and have a good laugh under Disciplinary Decisions. Book reading, $200.00 fines and a Scouts Honour Salute to never ever fib again!!We had a terrible time trying to find an expert appraiser to help us with our court case as they cited conflict of interest.

If anyone has any experience taking a realtor to court or would be interested in learning more about our case feel free to contact us here.

We don`t hate realtors - in every industry there are good and bad people. This isn`t buyers remorse either.

Our reason for doing this is not about the money BC only goes up to 25k - this is about doing what`s right. Seniors, Widows, Widowers and first time home buyers or new investors are at the greatest risk and the good realtors in the market place suffer too.

We felt that experienced buyers and sellers such as yourselves might have some valuable experience to share with us.

If you are interested in the story - we promise - it`s a good one - or are trying to determine whether or not you need to pursue legal action against a realtor please leave a note on the board. We have become very well versed in this as you can imagine.

The bottom line - we can prove our case with facts - our key witness is the realtor who was screwed out of the sale because ours didn`t want to split the commission - and he too is fed up with these morons in the industry.

The only way we will lose this case is by being out manouvered by the legal team.

If anyone has any advice we`d be grateful.

 

[JRL]

Double post, sorry.

 

[JRL]

All I can do is applaud your resolve in following-through with what you feel is right.

I had an awful situation last year with a realtor myself, didn`t really know what to do about it, and now maybe you can shed some light on this with respect to whether I was ripped-off or otherwise unjustly treated. Here`s the cliff-notes version of my story:

Decided I wanted a relatively inexpensive inner-city house last year, which I could almost trade my downtown condo for straight-up value-wise. Found one, and was shown the property by the listing agent. I liked it a lot, it was in a great area, it was surrounded by much nicer homes, it looked cosmetically pretty ugly but structurally sound, which are all great things from an investment perspective. The realtor suggested to me, in a very wink-wink, nudge-nudge kind of way, that the buyer was just wanting to get out; she lived out-of-town and was tired of playing the role of landlord.

So, an offer of $25K below list-price was written, and subsequently accepted. The conditions were adequate financing, an adequate home inspection, and the sale of my condo.

Approximately two days later, I get a phone call from the realtor who says that there was another offer put in on the house, which was "substantially higher" than mine, and that the seller had accepted. What that meant was that I could do one of two things:

A) Waive the "sale of my condo" condition
B) Give the property to this "other buyer"

In a decision that I would later regret many times over, I chose "A".

After this, we needed to get the condo listed and sold. The listing realtor called me, asked me a couple very standard questions about the condo, and said "hmm, OK, let`s list it at X". That was it. No logic, no strategy, no reasons why, just a couple very standard questions and some arbitrary figure thrown out there.

6 weeks later, there was a cumulative total of 6 showings. Activity was almost non-existant, I heard not a peep from the realtor, and he still had yet to physically even check-out the condo. So, I decided that it was high-time to give him a call and see what`s going on. The guy forgot who I was when I first called. Throughout these first 6 weeks, he had also not given me any feedback from the 6 showings whatsoever. His showing requests were all outsourced, so I honestly don`t think he had a pulse as to what was going on at all.

His response, after my wondering what was going on, was "hmm, I think you`ll probably need to lower your price". Well thanks, jerk - what would`ve happened if I didn`t call you? Would it have just remained sitting idly, overpriced, on the MLS for 90 days until the contract expired?

So I`m sure you can guess where this is going - the condo didn`t sell, and I truly feel that was due in large part to the realtor "having bigger, better deals to get done", and him just being completely unprofessional throughout and having a totally hands-off approach. Because of the condo not selling, I had to financially restructure the mortgage on my condo, had to do an equity takeout, and also had to include a high-interest second mortgage. My credit has plummeted. Almost all of my monthly income goes to some sort of debt-service, and, as we all know, the resale market has softened, prices have come down in a lot of instances, and it`s a complete buyer`s market in Calgary right now.

In fact, I had sold the house on July 11th, only for the buyer to back-out at the last minute late last night.

If you, or anybody else, have any advice with respect to what I should do, it`d be hugely appreciated.

And as for yourself taking your realtor to court, congratulations, I applaud you, and I would also suggest to get the local media involved, as I`m sure they`d love a juicy story about a shady realtor who tried to rip-off two honest folks. As for the profession in general, any time you`re not paid a salary until the deal goes through, I think it`s just a breeding-ground for shady behaviour. And with shady behaviour comes great consequences, as we see currently in the United States:"Potentially all the legacy companies are gone now,`` said Rob Haineshttp://https://intermail.cpr.ca/exc...F-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1, an analyst with CreditSights in New York. "It has huge implications for the municipal bond market and for banks that may have to take another round of writedowns. It`s just a mess."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

Cliff-notes version of this article is that most old bond & mortgage insurance companies in the US now have died. And what happens if there`s no insurance left to support the system? The losses flow back to the banks. Going forward, this means that it will be hard to obtain debt from the banks because:

A) They don`t have the capital anymore
B) They can`t use or trust insurance to protect them

Making it harder for:

A) Individuals to get loans
B) Municipalities to borrow & build

In my opinion, the whole realtor & mortgage broker industries need a lot more regulation. Of course, like everything, there are good and bad of each; the problem is that the consequences of having a bad one of either are so great that the quick-buck artists really need to be somehow weeded out of the system.

 

[RedlineBrett]

Being an agent in Alberta I can shed a few tidbits that might help people deal with drama relating to their agents

- Tell a realtor your expectations right out of the gate. If you don`t know what they are your agent will try and interpret them. If you get a `bad apple` they have been known to manipulate people and getting clients to march to the beat of their drum.

- Talk to them regularly to build up trust! Even if you are between deals or something your agent is on your team so help them play their position!

Now, if somehow you end up in a bad situation the quickest and most painless way to get a resolution is to go to the agents broker while the deal is still in play. If you feel like you are being screwed then buy yourself a day and call his or her broker and tell them your case.

Also call the local real estate board and plead your concerns as an innocent consumer. A good board will get the brokers of each agent in the deal in the loop and try and work something out.

Failing that - Document EVERYTHING and lawyer up as you have.

We pay A LOT for insurance, and I expect you will have an uphill battle because our legal teams are very well compensated however if you are in the right then justice will prevail!

 

[invst4profit]

Unfortunately being right isn`t always worth the battle. At one time I was big into the "moral outrage and righteous indignation" battles and found the reward was usually less than satisfactory.
You are obviously deep into this and hopefully the moral win will be rewarding enough to make it worth your time and expense.

 

[Fleetwoodmac]

QUOTE (RedlineBrett @ Jul 23 2008, 07:14 AM) Being an agent in Alberta I can shed a few tidbits that might help people deal with drama relating to their agents

- Tell a realtor your expectations right out of the gate. If you don`t know what they are your agent will try and interpret them. If you get a `bad apple` they have been known to manipulate people and getting clients to march to the beat of their drum.

- Talk to them regularly to build up trust! Even if you are between deals or something your agent is on your team so help them play their position!

Now, if somehow you end up in a bad situation the quickest and most painless way to get a resolution is to go to the agents broker while the deal is still in play. If you feel like you are being screwed then buy yourself a day and call his or her broker and tell them your case.

Also call the local real estate board and plead your concerns as an innocent consumer. A good board will get the brokers of each agent in the deal in the loop and try and work something out.

Failing that - Document EVERYTHING and lawyer up as you have.

We pay A LOT for insurance, and I expect you will have an uphill battle because our legal teams are very well compensated however if you are in the right then justice will prevail!



We sent an itemized letter to the agent`s broker prior to closing. His only response was `see you in court`.
The only result of sending our complaint letter to the Board and Council was getting an itemized resoponse letter from the agent defending herself. This letter left us with more questions and no avenue for answers. Was the Board and Council`s flippant response of `no wrong doing` recognition of the fact of negligence and possible court proceedings down the road? Or, was their flippant response expected to resolve any misunderstandings of fact? They failed on both accounts.

Two questions:
In a double-ending the commission situation shouldn`t the buyer`s commission always be refunded to the sellers themselves and not go to the sellers agent?
If there is a double-end situation doesn`t there also have to be dual listing agreement?

We`d value a response.
Thanks!

 

[Fleetwoodmac]

QUOTE (JRL @ Jul 23 2008, 05:24 AM) So, an offer of $25K below list-price was written, and subsequently accepted. The conditions were adequate financing, an adequate home inspection, and the sale of my condo.

Approximately two days later, I get a phone call from the realtor who says that there was another offer put in on the house, which was "substantially higher" than mine, and that the seller had accepted.


If your offer was accepted the subsequent offer is invalid is it not? Anyone up on contract law?

 

[mrinvestor]

QUOTE (invst4profit @ Jul 23 2008, 09:34 AM) Unfortunately being right isn`t always worth the battle. At one time I was big into the "moral outrage and righteous indignation" battles and found the reward was usually less than satisfactory.
You are obviously deep into this and hopefully the moral win will be rewarding enough to make it worth your time and expense.

I agree. I`ve had some challenging situations that were definitely unjust. Best advice is to move on as quickly as possible. If you do wish to change the world, recognize that you will probably not benefit and it will take a lot out of you. I also agree that you need to involve the media and as many regulatory bodies as you can possibly find and do these thing ASAP. Maybe you don`t win in court (or give up the court battle), but you can have so many people watching them that you make it challenging for them to ever do this to someone else.

Trevor

 

[mrinvestor]

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[GaryCameron780]

In every business there are always the select few who are less than honorable.

Please keep us posted.

Cheers,


Gary Cameron
Edmonton, AB

 

[RedlineBrett]

Sorry to hear you are in this mess.

I will answer your questions as per current Alberta rules. Your deal went down in BC several years ago so please understand I cannot comment on their laws at the time all of this occurred.

QUOTE Two questions:
In a double-ending the commission situation shouldn`t the buyer`s commission always be refunded to the sellers themselves and not go to the sellers agent?

In a `standard` deal - no. The seller pays the full, agreed-upon commission to get the property sold. If another brokerage brings a buyer the listing brokerage will compensate them, usually with half or whatever the full standard amount is for a buyer`s agent. If the listing agent attracts a buyer through their own marketing then they can, if you let them, work both ends of the deal. This is called `dual agency` and must be permitted by the seller in writing before the property goes on the market. If you choose NOT to allow your agent to pursue leads that aren`t currently represented then the listing agent must tell these leads to either go and get another agent or declare `customer status` which means they are choosing to enter into the deal with no representation whatsoever. In the latter the listing agent would still collect the full commish.

QUOTE If there is a double-end situation doesn`t there also have to be dual listing agreement?

Not quite. The listing agent needs to acknowledge to BOTH parties that they are acting as a dual agent. The buyer must sign off on this and so must the seller... but going back to above the seller typically does this right at the time of listing.

QUOTE We`d value a response.
Thanks!

Wish I could give you better ammo. Good luck with your case. Dual agency is by far the greatest source of grief when it comes to agents and is why I strongly recommend that buyers ALWAYS get their own agent! As a seller you never want your agent to turn away a lead so it is important that you get perfect clarity on how your agent will be representing you with their BEST interests when in dual agency.

 

[Fleetwoodmac]

QUOTE (RedlineBrett @ Jul 23 2008, 11:51 AM) If the listing agent attracts a buyer through their own marketing then they can, if you let them, work both ends of the deal. This is called `dual agency` and must be permitted by the seller in writing before the property goes on the market. If you choose NOT to allow your agent to pursue leads that aren`t currently represented then the listing agent must tell these leads to either go and get another agent or declare `customer status` which means they are choosing to enter into the deal with no representation whatsoever. In the latter the listing agent would still collect the full commish.


We actually brought the eventual buyer (Municipality) to the attention of our agent. Does it matter whether this was before or after the property goes on the market? The Municipality chose not to use an agent. In that case shouldn`t a reputable agent offer to reimburse the buyer`s share of the commission back to the seller? Or, is it up to us, the naive seller, to understand how commission works in the first place? Isn`t the agent naturally biased to promote the double-end situation rather than a highest price one?

 

[ccameron]

I have recently had an experince with my mortgage broker that left me in a most undesirable position. To make a long story short I had been investing quite quickly in rental properties. Being that my credit was good and my primary residence was paid in full I had quite a system going. One mortgage in particular came so easy to me that most of the details were handled over e-mail. Well after consulting with my broker and sending him a copy of a mls listing on a duplex he felt that I would qualifiy for a zero down mortgage on the place. After many conversations and correspondence I thought that I was all clear and removed my conditions(I realize that I should have had a commitment in hand) but since all our other deals just flowed I had no reason to believe other wise. At the same time I found a great deal on a property for my self and made an offer. My finances were covered on this purchase but was informed that I did not qualify for the zero down mortgage as only one of my rental properties appered on my last years income tax return.(I only owned one then). I was told that I would have to come up with 25 % down!#$^$@#I was in a panick. I felt as though I was suddenly the only one who was looking out for me! They ended up finding a company out of province that would fund me with 10% down. I had to jump through hoops, pay a larger amount to CMHC. Pay a penality to the sellers for delaying the closing date twice due to slow service and spend $15 000.00 of my savings that I had ear marked for my new house. I felt very let down and disappointed with both my broker and myself for the whole mess.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

don`t let "revenge" or the feeling "I have been screwed .. I`ll get the *******" guide your life !

Much time and money .. and even more positive opportunities are wasted in pursuing "the bad guy" ..

yes, many crooks out there .. not only in the real estate business but also in insurance, car business, contracting, law firms, stock market .. the list goes on and on ..

A suggestion: be slow to anger, and quick to forgive ..

Humble yourself and turn the other cheek .. i.e. consider dropping the legal battle and your life will be easier and more productive .. and you will make up the 25K (or ten to 100 fold that) in no time elsewhere ..

 

[JRL]

A suggestion: be slow to anger, and quick to forgive ..
Humble yourself and turn the other cheek .. i.e. consider dropping the legal battle and your life will be easier and more productive .. and you will make up the 25K (or ten to 100 fold that) in no time elsewhere ..

I don`t know if I agree with that.

It`s responses like these, which are probably what the grand majority of people do (feel bad about it for a little bit, then forget it), which reinforce the behaviours of the wrongdoer by not really having any consequences bestowed upon him/her.

I know that of the times where I`ve been seriously wronged by another person, and when I`ve made a big stink about it, they`ve taken notice, they`ve acknowledged their wrongdoings, and they`ve been taught a lesson that probably won`t soon be forgotten. An old saying can be applied here - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I really wish I would`ve done more to this realtor last summer, but it was just too stressful and time-consuming a situation for me to really get anything done.

Turning the other cheek is exactly what the wrongdoer wants; I`d much rather make them sweat a little.

 

[Fleetwoodmac]

QUOTE (ccameron @ Jul 23 2008, 05:00 PM) I have recently had an experince with my mortgage broker that left me in a most undesirable position. To make a long story short I had been investing quite quickly in rental properties. Being that my credit was good and my primary residence was paid in full I had quite a system going. One mortgage in particular came so easy to me that most of the details were handled over e-mail. Well after consulting with my broker and sending him a copy of a mls listing on a duplex he felt that I would qualifiy for a zero down mortgage on the place. After many conversations and correspondence I thought that I was all clear and removed my conditions(I realize that I should have had a commitment in hand) but since all our other deals just flowed I had no reason to believe other wise. At the same time I found a great deal on a property for my self and made an offer. My finances were covered on this purchase but was informed that I did not qualify for the zero down mortgage as only one of my rental properties appered on my last years income tax return.(I only owned one then). I was told that I would have to come up with 25 % down!#$^$@#I was in a panick. I felt as though I was suddenly the only one who was looking out for me! They ended up finding a company out of province that would fund me with 10% down. I had to jump through hoops, pay a larger amount to CMHC. Pay a penality to the sellers for delaying the closing date twice due to slow service and spend $15 000.00 of my savings that I had ear marked for my new house. I felt very let down and disappointed with both my broker and myself for the whole mess.


I am so sorry. This just makes me really angry. It happens all the time. There is no compensation - it`s just the `deer in the head lights look` and a shrug of the shoulders.

I wish the professionals in the real estate and related industries who are good at their jobs could some how lobby their groups to keep their clubs a little smaller - does everyone who wants to be a broker, realtor, appraiser and building inspector have to be accepted?

Isn`t there some way to keep the dumb asses out?

We have friends in each of these professions and it pisses them off too.

We too have had issues with a couple of bad brokers and have actually reported them. What we finally learned was pre-approval - in writing is virtually impossible to get. Try and get one. They will say - you are approved but they will not commit to it in any formal document.

In fact we have tried a couple of times and the ones we worked with - two different companies wouldn`t do it.

Pre-approval `in theory` is about all it appears to be. Sometimes it`s just the rate.

We have had experience with almost losing a deal because our buyer was told he was good to go - and he wasn`t - it all came down at the 11th hour + two extensions that we granted but...without penalty.

In purchasing our latest property we too had to come up with a larger amount of CMHC at the last minute. No warning that there is a 6% for the evil self-employed.

Our first broker almost lost us our puchase all together - financing had been `pre-approved` and then the lender came back after subject removal - thinking our documentation was suspect - which it was NOT. Seeing as CRA is a client of mine it would be rather foolish of us on many levels to ever do something so stupid.

Fortunately my brother suggested I find a back up broker just in case who put the deal through without any difficulty.
When the 1st broker`s boss came back to tell us the `good news` that all was good to go and I told her we were sorry but had gone with someone else - she called me every name in the book!! In fact even told me what a terrible Christmas her broker was going to have because of us.

Huh?! I couldn`t imagine in my business - bidding on a project - not getting the job - and then telling off the prospective client. What about "I`m sorry it didn`t work out this time but please keep us in mind for the next opportunity?"

The good news is that in BC they do take complaints seriously - FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS COMMISSION Telephone: 604 953-5300 . I reported her and they investigated - plus they were very interested to learn we were advised by that broker to `white out` line 150 on our tax return!!! She assured me that was common practice in the industry. We did a stated income as we are self employed.

I am just so grateful for a forum such as this because it`s the only way that we - as gentle Canadians - stand a chance of making some changes.

I love the kinder souls out there who believe that turning the other cheek is the best way to go in life. I`m tired of doing so quite frankly - and yes - I do have a great life with lots of love and laughter!! A little pushing back on some of these clowns is greatly needed and I am willing to make the time to do so.

 

[Fleetwoodmac]

QUOTE (JRL @ Jul 23 2008, 05:24 AM) All I can do is applaud your resolve in following-through with what you feel is right.

I had an awful situation last year with a realtor myself, didn`t really know what to do about it, and now maybe you can shed some light on this with respect to whether I was ripped-off or otherwise unjustly treated. Here`s the cliff-notes version of my story:

Decided I wanted a relatively inexpensive inner-city house last year, which I could almost trade my downtown condo for straight-up value-wise. Found one, and was shown the property by the listing agent. I liked it a lot, it was in a great area, it was surrounded by much nicer homes, it looked cosmetically pretty ugly but structurally sound, which are all great things from an investment perspective. The realtor suggested to me, in a very wink-wink, nudge-nudge kind of way, that the buyer was just wanting to get out; she lived out-of-town and was tired of playing the role of landlord.

So, an offer of $25K below list-price was written, and subsequently accepted. The conditions were adequate financing, an adequate home inspection, and the sale of my condo.

Approximately two days later, I get a phone call from the realtor who says that there was another offer put in on the house, which was "substantially higher" than mine, and that the seller had accepted. What that meant was that I could do one of two things:

A) Waive the "sale of my condo" condition
B) Give the property to this "other buyer"

In a decision that I would later regret many times over, I chose "A".

After this, we needed to get the condo listed and sold. The listing realtor called me, asked me a couple very standard questions about the condo, and said "hmm, OK, let`s list it at X". That was it. No logic, no strategy, no reasons why, just a couple very standard questions and some arbitrary figure thrown out there.

6 weeks later, there was a cumulative total of 6 showings. Activity was almost non-existant, I heard not a peep from the realtor, and he still had yet to physically even check-out the condo. So, I decided that it was high-time to give him a call and see what`s going on. The guy forgot who I was when I first called. Throughout these first 6 weeks, he had also not given me any feedback from the 6 showings whatsoever. His showing requests were all outsourced, so I honestly don`t think he had a pulse as to what was going on at all.

His response, after my wondering what was going on, was "hmm, I think you`ll probably need to lower your price". Well thanks, jerk - what would`ve happened if I didn`t call you? Would it have just remained sitting idly, overpriced, on the MLS for 90 days until the contract expired?

So I`m sure you can guess where this is going - the condo didn`t sell, and I truly feel that was due in large part to the realtor "having bigger, better deals to get done", and him just being completely unprofessional throughout and having a totally hands-off approach. Because of the condo not selling, I had to financially restructure the mortgage on my condo, had to do an equity takeout, and also had to include a high-interest second mortgage. My credit has plummeted. Almost all of my monthly income goes to some sort of debt-service, and, as we all know, the resale market has softened, prices have come down in a lot of instances, and it`s a complete buyer`s market in Calgary right now.

In fact, I had sold the house on July 11th, only for the buyer to back-out at the last minute late last night.

If you, or anybody else, have any advice with respect to what I should do, it`d be hugely appreciated.And as for yourself taking your realtor to court, congratulations, I applaud you, and I would also suggest to get the local media involved, as I`m sure they`d love a juicy story about a shady realtor who tried to rip-off two honest folks. As for the profession in general, any time you`re not paid a salary until the deal goes through, I think it`s just a breeding-ground for shady behaviour. And with shady behaviour comes great consequences, as we see currently in the United States:"Potentially all the legacy companies are gone now,`` said Rob Haineshttp://https://intermail.cpr.ca/exc...F-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1, an analyst with CreditSights in New York. "It has huge implications for the municipal bond market and for banks that may have to take another round of writedowns. It`s just a mess."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...&refer=home

Cliff-notes version of this article is that most old bond & mortgage insurance companies in the US now have died. And what happens if there`s no insurance left to support the system? The losses flow back to the banks. Going forward, this means that it will be hard to obtain debt from the banks because:

A) They don`t have the capital anymore
B) They can`t use or trust insurance to protect them

Making it harder for:

A) Individuals to get loans
B) Municipalities to borrow & build

In my opinion, the whole realtor & mortgage broker industries need a lot more regulation. Of course, like everything, there are good and bad of each; the problem is that the consequences of having a bad one of either are so great that the quick-buck artists really need to be somehow weeded out of the system.



I just wanted to expand/add to our earlier reply and say that your situation just sucks. As you have likely found out there is no where to go - the Boards and Councils are toothless and self - regulatory. In fact when we complained - the Board`s investigator laughed at us saying that nothing ever happens in these situations though the transaction was irregular.

It`s doubtful that your realtor didn`t likely violate anything in the Act but just is terribly poor at his job. This is often what is cited by the regulatory bodies. Being a `doofus` unfortunately isn`t part of the Act.

Even the good realtors aren`t protected - in our case - our key witness was strongly advised by his managing broker not to tesify on our behalf as it would jeopardize his career.

There is something wrong when an occupation can be responsible for millions of dollars worth of transactions and even ruin peoples lives in some cases but there is no where for their victims to go.

We agree with you about the need for more regulation and thank you for your kind words of support. We are trying in our small way to effect some change.

From what I understand we have the right to ask for proof of these last minute offers as many of them are `phantom`. Not sure if this is true though.

We have tried to get the media interested over the past 4 years. Minor success only. Toronto Star has done some great stuff. CBC did contact me for a piece they did on first time home buying but unless the person interviewing has had a couple of their own real estate transactions - it appears they don`t quite `get it`.

Plus - the realtors provide advertising dollars to most of the mainstream media. If anyone knows of a reporter who might be interested please pass our info along.

I wish I could offer you some words of advice but - like us - you will get through this and come out wiser and richer in the long run. It is just the interim that might be tough.

Is your deal truly dead in the water or did it just hit a glitch? Can you sweeten the pot?! Crunch the carrying costs vs lowering the price. Make them an offer they can`t refuse. Vendor take back financing? Anything?!! Sex?!!

If you can talk to them directly it will likely work - you are still obligated to your agent`s commission unfortunately but at least you`d have a sale.


Best of luck!!

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE We actually brought the eventual buyer (Municipality) to the attention of our agent. Does it matter whether this was before or after the property goes on the market?

In Alberta you can protect yourself here by using an `exclusion` clause. This means that if the property sells to someone that you name and put in writing on the listing contract then `such and such` a commission structure will take place. I had a deal once where this lady wanted to list her house but she knew that the neighbors had expressed interest in buying her place for a family member. I told them that if this person came forward and did the deal I would take a significant haircut on my commission (cover my costs basically). They never did offer but everyone knew how it would go down if they did.

QUOTE The Municipality chose not to use an agent. In that case shouldn`t a reputable agent offer to reimburse the buyer`s share of the commission back to the seller?

No, again, you are agreeing to a price to sell your home. This is the number you should expect to pay unless there is a special circumstance that you can identify PRIOR TO LISTING that you wish to address with your agent. The municipality could be asking your agent dozens of questions, want to view the place a number of times, ask for referrals to other people etc. If your agent brings them to the point of offering they have effectively done the job of both agents and deserve both cheques.

QUOTE Or, is it up to us, the naive seller, to understand how commission works in the first place?

It is up to your agent to explain to you how they will be compensated and also how they will be serving your best interests from beginning to end. But you are selling YOUR asset, so as the owner you certainly have the responsibility to make sure you understand everything before signing a listing contract!

QUOTE Isn`t the agent naturally biased to promote the double-end situation rather than a highest price one?

Here is where it gets tricky. Agents can be in dual agency but NOT when in competition. If you had multiple offers on your property then your agent would have to get another agent to either help their buyer write (in this case the municipality) or present the offers to you.

Basically, one party can`t know something the other party doesn`t and they can`t have increased leverage over another buyer because of their agreement with you. This can happen in hot markets.

If you aren`t in competition (as in two offers on the table at the same time) then this doesn`t matter. All you have to work with is the one legit offer, so an agent can go dual in this case. Obviously your agent stands to benefit more if they find and cultivate a buyer before another agent brings one along... but the net result for you as the seller is the same.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

QUOTE (JRL @ Jul 23 2008, 08:42 PM) A suggestion: be slow to anger, and quick to forgive ..
Humble yourself and turn the other cheek .. i.e. consider dropping the legal battle and your life will be easier and more productive .. and you will make up the 25K (or ten to 100 fold that) in no time elsewhere ..

I don`t know if I agree with that.

It`s responses like these, which are probably what the grand majority of people do (feel bad about it for a little bit, then forget it), which reinforce the behaviours of the wrongdoer by not really having any consequences bestowed upon him/her.

I know that of the times where I`ve been seriously wronged by another person, and when I`ve made a big stink about it, they`ve taken notice, they`ve acknowledged their wrongdoings, and they`ve been taught a lesson that probably won`t soon be forgotten. An old saying can be applied here - the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I really wish I would`ve done more to this realtor last summer, but it was just too stressful and time-consuming a situation for me to really get anything done.

Turning the other cheek is exactly what the wrongdoer wants; I`d much rather make them sweat a little.

consider a career change into law enforcement ! Is real estate your passion ?

Pursue what you love to do !

 

[PeterKinchMortgageTeam]

QUOTE (Fleetwoodmac @ Jul 23 2008, 10:35 PM) I am so sorry. This just makes me really angry. It happens all the time. There is no compensation - it`s just the `deer in the head lights look` and a shrug of the shoulders.
I wish the professionals in the real estate and related industries who are good at their jobs could some how lobby their groups to keep their clubs a little smaller - does everyone who wants to be a broker, realtor, appraiser and building inspector have to be accepted?

Isn`t there some way to keep the dumb asses out?

We have friends in each of these professions and it pisses them off too.

We too have had issues with a couple of bad brokers and have actually reported them. What we finally learned was pre-approval - in writing is virtually impossible to get. Try and get one. They will say - you are approved but they will not commit to it in any formal document.

In fact we have tried a couple of times and the ones we worked with - two different companies wouldn`t do it.

Pre-approval `in theory` is about all it appears to be. Sometimes it`s just the rate.

We have had experience with almost losing a deal because our buyer was told he was good to go - and he wasn`t - it all came down at the 11th hour + two extensions that we granted but...without penalty.

In purchasing our latest property we too had to come up with a larger amount of CMHC at the last minute. No warning that there is a 6% for the evil self-employed.

Our first broker almost lost us our puchase all together - financing had been `pre-approved` and then the lender came back after subject removal - thinking our documentation was suspect - which it was NOT. Seeing as CRA is a client of mine it would be rather foolish of us on many levels to ever do something so stupid.

Fortunately my brother suggested I find a back up broker just in case who put the deal through without any difficulty.

When the 1st broker`s boss came back to tell us the `good news` that all was good to go and I told her we were sorry but had gone with someone else - she called me every name in the book!! In fact even told me what a terrible Christmas her broker was going to have because of us.

Huh?! I couldn`t imagine in my business - bidding on a project - not getting the job - and then telling off the prospective client. What about "I`m sorry it didn`t work out this time but please keep us in mind for the next opportunity?"

The good news is that in BC they do take complaints seriously - FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS COMMISSION Telephone: 604 953-5300 . I reported her and they investigated - plus they were very interested to learn we were advised by that broker to `white out` line 150 on our tax return!!! She assured me that was common practice in the industry. We did a stated income as we are self employed.

I am just so grateful for a forum such as this because it`s the only way that we - as gentle Canadians - stand a chance of making some changes.

I love the kinder souls out there who believe that turning the other cheek is the best way to go in life. I`m tired of doing so quite frankly - and yes - I do have a great life with lots of love and laughter!! A little pushing back on some of these clowns is greatly needed and I am willing to make the time to do so.

Unfortunatly, as you pointed out, a "preapproval" is really nothing more than a rate hold- a good broker or banker will tell you that right off the bat. A lender, insurer,banker or broker for obvious reasons, simply cannot commit to financing a property before they know what it is. The condition its in, where its located, the type of property will all factor in when the committment is issued.

With banks and insurers, it all comes down to the numbers. A good broker or banker would be happy to prequalify you - meaning run through your application to give you an idea of what amounts you would qualify for. Based on that they can tell you what price range you should be looking in, and the amount of rent you would need to able to confirm on that property. Bear in mind, even with that, there are many variables. Is it one suite or two, conforming or not, can those rents be confirmed by the appraiser?

There are alot of variables involved when you are purchasing a property, and alot of players from different sandboxes who all have requirements that need to be met and satisfied. Financing is never a done deal, until its in writing. If it is a done deal and unconditional, you`ll be able to get it in writing.

Hope that helps,