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To buy .. or to rent .. in MAUI

Thomas Beyer

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I love Maui .. and have been there many times .. buying a 2BR condo or house always has intrigued me .. but does it really make sense ?

Indeed buying foreign / vacation properties make sense only if

a) you go there regularly (say 2x/year .. for many years to come)
b) you go there for an extended period .. say 3-4 months
c) you can pay in cash
d) you have enough other income that the opportunity cost of this cash doesn’t bother you
e) you are aware of tax implications while holding
f) you are aware of tax implications on exit
g) you know all true operating/holding costs such as
  • property taxes
  • condo fees
  • maintenance fees (if not condo) such as gardener, pool boy, cleaner
  • frequent interior replacement costs for rotting couch due to mold or termites or salty sea air, stolen TV or carpet insurance utilities incl. telephone or internet travel cost to get there
h) it is secure to live there
i) it is secure if you are not there / it is empty
j) you have seen it in both off- and in-season .. and see both aspects of it
k) there is demand for resale/used properties of this type
l) it is attractive to rent out (if this is your intention)
m) there is a capable, non-corrupt manager to manage complex or unit when rented or just as an owner complex
n) you have rented there a few times, and have decided that owning is a better option and understand a) to m) thoroughly

There are things in life you should own, say your shoes or your jacket or your car or your fridge. Things you use a lot. Other things, those you use little, should be rented, say a tuxedo, or a cab ride, or a hotel room or a vacation property !

Since I also like Cabo, Laguna Beach, Venice (both CA and Italy), Palm Springs, Florida Keys, St. Lucia, Vancouver Island, PEI, St. Tropez, Costa del Sol , Nice, Ruegen, Sylt and a few others I forget .. we decided (for now) not to buy but rent from the savings of not investing in a condo in Maui !


Your thoughts ? too rational ? Your experiences ?
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Jul 29 2010, 11:00 PM) Since I also like Cabo, Laguna Beach, Venice (both CA and Italy), Palm Springs, Florida Keys, St. Lucia, Vancouver Island, PEI, St. Tropez, Costa del Sol , Nice, Ruegen, Sylt and a few others I forget .. we decided (for now) not to buy but rent from the savings of not investing in a condo in Maui !


Your thoughts ? too rational ? Your experiences ?

I have a family member that has purchased a two bedroom condo in Maui. Every time they go on vacation somewhere else, they feel bad they`re not using their condo in Maui. Regret is an unfortunate way to start a vacation, and it makes people less likely to go somewhere they really want to experience.

Personally, I would never buy a vacation property, only a "retirement" property, if I was planning to live somewhere for 4-6 months of the year. And I wouldn`t buy until I had rented in that location at least once, to make sure paradise was really all it was cracked up to be.

All that being said, a real estate investment in Maui, Phoenix, or the South of France has the same criteria as any other, at least in my opinion. If it had strong positive cash flow including all expenses (and if renting it as a vacation property, vacancy will be HIGH) then it would be a buy, assuming the return compensated for the extra risk of buying somewhere unfamiliar.

Michael
 

REINteam

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Very rational, Thomas. But I think it is important to be so strict with those guidelines when it comes to investing outside of Canada, particularly on a vacation property.

Don Campbell is currently doing a 6 part series for Canadians Investing in US or Tropical real estate on his blog at www.donrcampbell.com

Here is the first post of the series

Here is the most recent

If you have ANY intention of looking for investment property outside Canada, you MUST read this blog series - the information is invaluable. And don`t hesitate to pass it on to those people you may know that are looking to do the same thing and take their investments into international waters!
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Jul 30 2010, 01:00 AM) Your thoughts ? too rational ? Your experiences ?

Thanks for the great post Thomas!

I don`t find your rules to be `too rational`. I`m more of an algorithmic thinker so I need a well defined box of rules for me to do well.

With regards to my wife and I, we don`t like the idea of buying vacation/tropical real estate since we like to mix our vacations up every year (resort, cruise, sightseeing, etc.)
 
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RussellWestcott

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Thomas
You are taking the fun out of the vacation .. with all the analysis.

To be the contrarian, YOU MUST
buy a place in Maui... so I know someone who has a place there when I go on vacation
.

Bit off topic... For those who would like a great place to stay while vacationing in Maui, on our last trip we stayed at the PunaHoa, and was an incredible place to stay.--> link here. a hidden gem.
 

RedlineBrett

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Love Maui... I don`t travel much but I preferred Maui over a 5 star resort in Mexico we stayed in a little less than 2 years ago.

Of course once we were there we had to look at some property... but after several glasses of wine we decided not to buy something as we`d feel we had to spend every one of our holidays at the property in order to get our money`s worth. Ya you can rent it out to mitigate costs but will it really feel like your place if you do? Wouldn`t for my wife and I.

We did the math on the `lifestyle` return we`d get for occupying one of these units for 2 weeks / yr. Decided we`d rather pop for a suite at the fairmont each time we go and keep the flexibility to check out some other options.

I have to admit that it was refreshing to shop in a different market and different property type though!
 

Nir

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Jul 29 2010, 10:00 PM) Your thoughts ? too rational ? Your experiences ?

Hi Thomas,

What is the probability of your favorite vacation place also being the best place to invest in the world?

Just look at the totally different parameters used to decide on a best place to invest VS. favorite place to relax, go on vacation and you will see how low this probability is.
I`d definitely recommend not to invest there but rather stay in your favorite hotel or change location within Maui from time to time. Also, this way you`ll have a more clear distinction between work and vacation. As they say - "don`t mix business with pleasure". you don`t want to look at the garden and think "is the gardener doing a good job?" or look at the property and ask yourself "did I hire a good property manager?" instead of enjoying the things you really like about Maui.

Cheers,
Neil
 

TheVancouverLife

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If Maui is on your "Vision Board" or it`s your "Personal Belize" then buy.

If it`s not then just rent...


Alan
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (TheVancouverLife @ Aug 12 2010, 12:58 AM)
If Maui is on your "Vision Board" or it's your "Personal Belize" then buy.



If it's not then just rent...
<




Alan


it is .. the question is: how many months a year do I want to stay in Maui .. and even if 3 month or so: buy or rent ?!?!?!



In other words: will the potential value upside offset the required carrying and opportunity costs ?
 

TheVancouverLife

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Aug 12 2010, 08:07 AM) it is .. the question is: how many months a year do I want to stay in Maui .. and even if 3 month or so: buy or rent ?!?!?!

In other words: will the potential value upside offset the required carrying and opportunity costs ?

Aloha,

Prices are depressed in Maui at the moment. Some places are now selling 50% less than before the recession.

You could buy & rent a place on the beach per night and recoup most if not all of your expenses.

Then you can decide how long you want to spend there.

Winter months are high season which will command high nightly rates.

You can easily predict your annual income by doing the following:

-Go on the website VRBO.com (Vacation Rentals By Owners)
-Then locate the building, resort, or area you would consider investing in.
-For arguement sakes lookup Aina Nalu in Lahaina (I`ve been there before)
-Browse through the condos for rent and look at the occupancy calendars of each unit to see how many are booked up and calculate their income based on the nightly rates they are advertising.
-You can pick-up a 2-bed & 2-bath condo at this resort for under $300k.

This will help run the numbers through for you.

Been there, done that....who knows we may become Maui neighbors one day (Maui is on my vision board too!)
.

Mahalo,
Alan
 

Rickson9

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It`s weird, but I don`t have any location (Maui etc.) on my "vision board" (first time I read this term was in this thread) - I`m far more keen on my physical and mental health during my old age.

I`m fairly paranoid about my health (eating a ton of veggies and fibre a day, joggin dozens of kms a week, poppin multi-vitamin/folic acid/omega-3/vit D/vit E/vit C pills daily, etc.); it may not be a great way to approach it, but I`m thinking that as long as I have my health during my old age, I`ll be pretty darn happy wherever I decide to live.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (TheVancouverLife @ Aug 12 2010, 02:02 PM) ...

You can easily predict your annual income by doing the following:
..
so 300K a condo .. but I don`t really like Lahaina except for a stroll through the art galleries .. so let`s use Kihei or Wailea @ 600K:

rents for $150 to $200/night GROSS .. say 200 nights/year .. so let`s call this $35,000/year .. minus PM fee of perhaps 30% .. so $25,000 NET

from that I`d pay:
property taxes: $8000 or so
condo fees: $10,000 so or

so, I`d net $7000 .. or a 1% CAP rate .. but then I have 150 nights/year for free .. let`s say I use 100..

plus maybe 6% on 600K in opportunity cost, so 36K .. minus 7K income = 30K cost plus any in-suite upgrades (new TV, new carpet, new sofa, new sheets .. from time to time)

so $300/night .. and for that I could probably rent s.th. pretty nice in Maui .. or elsewhere ..

so the only unknown now is: will this 600K condo be worth, say $1M in a few years .. maybe .. maybe not ..

hence the post / dilemma !
 

EdRenkema

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QUOTE (Rickson9 @ Aug 12 2010, 02:08 PM) I`m far more keen on my physical and mental health during my old age.

OK do 2 things: 1. don`t obsess over it just follow a simple proven lifestyle (more is not always better)
2. choose the right parents
Thats it!
 

Nir

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Rickson, it`s great you want to be healthy and enjoy life. To achieve that you need to reduce your stress level and this includes not worrying too much about your health.
Death is inevitable only delayable. Since you already know that, the real question for you is can you not worry too much about elements beyond your control especially laws of nature. Regards, Neil
 

ontariolandlord

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Life is short.

Prices there are historically low, and certainly won`t remain this low for long.

And being pushed to spend more time there (to make economic sense) sounds very good to me!
 

Rickson9

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QUOTE (investmart @ Aug 15 2010, 09:36 PM)
Rickson, it's great you want to be healthy and enjoy life. To achieve that you need to reduce your stress level and this includes not worrying too much about your health.

Death is inevitable only delayable. Since you already know that, the real question for you is can you not worry too much about elements beyond your control especially laws of nature. Regards, Neil




Thanks. I'm pretty low stress as it is, so I hope that helps!
 
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