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Wolf in Sheep`s Clothing - Newbie experience

alexchee

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Sep 23, 2007
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Dear fellow rein members,

I just wanted to share my experience as a newbie. My main purpose is to turn a bad experience to a postive lesson so that we can learn from my mistake.

Background

I m a new immigrant of 2.5 years - read about Alberta Rein prior to coming. So when i landed, i immediately hit the ground running by buying a house. I used the knowledge and research that i read from the REIN website to make myself a Capital gain of $150000 in 6 months on holding a property. I move to a bigger property and when the prices were almost hitting to the peak, i refinanced at got HELOC from the my home.

On April 08, i decided to take the plunge and sign up as a rein member, took procession of my 1st rental property in early June 08. All went well, the property fits the system to a T.

Problems crop up when i needed to do a renovation to spruce up the property for equity apprecation and increase the rental . I interview a few contractors(Condo Handyman, Yellow Pages etc) and finally selected another REIN member (let call him - wolf) who is aware of all the recommend colours for the walls, types of material to order from RONA, BYW he was refer by my mortgage broker (bless him - he is a great guy) and me being naive. Didn`t do the full due diligence that DON always speaks about.

The alarm bells almost started ringing on the day after i handed him 50% of the project cost as a deposit - he was supposed to email a copy of the contract but he didnt. He promised to start work on the following monday but never did. We were playing hide and seek, i was following up with him finally after having the property sitting idle for 1.5 months until he told me that he will not work on my property at all (thank god). The next part of the story was followed by a series of no-show appointment, making appointment to meet u in the east and finally telling u to go to the west of the city to meet him. When u finally getting to meet him = checks that were issued bouncing, being stopped and making a trips after trips to the bank to get the check certified but to no avail. After hounding him for weeks patiently, he finally gave up and return to me my deposit in parts as he realized that i am not going to stop until i get my hard earn money only recently.

At the same time, i was fortunate to engage a tradesman to do most of the required job at half the price. Dont ask me to recommend this guy, everytime i m not there - things hardly moves (he is paid by the hours).

The lesson that i learn are as follows:

a. Due diligence does not slack after the property comes into your name. It has to be on every steps of the way.
b. To check if the company is licensed to operate before parting with a single cent for the "deposit". If the company cannot produced a contract before the work is done be very wary. Til today i have not been able to estab if the company is licensed - ie having a company account does not means that it is licensed.
c. I am also suspicious that the GST he is collecting, is it a way to boost the income - Of course to those of the REIN member who might have used his services before might wonder just like me. Think about it?
d. He is told my broker and me that he is doing all of Russel Property that needs to be renovated. In hindsight? Really
e. Always have a Plan B and never give up - in fact wifey had already given up on ever seeing the $$.

Please give me your comments and ideas from your experience. Cheers
style_emoticons
 

GSI

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REIN Member
Joined
Aug 30, 2007
Messages
200
QUOTE (alexchee @ Aug 27 2008, 11:59 PM) Dear fellow rein members,

I just wanted to share my experience as a newbie. My main purpose is to turn a bad experience to a postive lesson so that we can learn from my mistake.

Background

I m a new immigrant of 2.5 years - read about Alberta Rein prior to coming. So when i landed, i immediately hit the ground running by buying a house. I used the knowledge and research that i read from the REIN website to make myself a Capital gain of $150000 in 6 months on holding a property. I move to a bigger property and when the prices were almost hitting to the peak, i refinanced at got HELOC from the my home.

On April 08, i decided to take the plunge and sign up as a rein member, took procession of my 1st rental property in early June 08. All went well, the property fits the system to a T.

Problems crop up when i needed to do a renovation to spruce up the property for equity apprecation and increase the rental . I interview a few contractors(Condo Handyman, Yellow Pages etc) and finally selected another REIN member (let call him - wolf) who is aware of all the recommend colours for the walls, types of material to order from RONA, BYW he was refer by my mortgage broker (bless him - he is a great guy) and me being naive. Didn`t do the full due diligence that DON always speaks about.

The alarm bells almost started ringing on the day after i handed him 50% of the project cost as a deposit - he was supposed to email a copy of the contract but he didnt. He promised to start work on the following monday but never did. We were playing hide and seek, i was following up with him finally after having the property sitting idle for 1.5 months until he told me that he will not work on my property at all (thank god). The next part of the story was followed by a series of no-show appointment, making appointment to meet u in the east and finally telling u to go to the west of the city to meet him. When u finally getting to meet him = checks that were issued bouncing, being stopped and making a trips after trips to the bank to get the check certified but to no avail. After hounding him for weeks patiently, he finally gave up and return to me my deposit in parts as he realized that i am not going to stop until i get my hard earn money only recently.

At the same time, i was fortunate to engage a tradesman to do most of the required job at half the price. Dont ask me to recommend this guy, everytime i m not there - things hardly moves (he is paid by the hours).

The lesson that i learn are as follows:

a. Due diligence does not slack after the property comes into your name. It has to be on every steps of the way.
b. To check if the company is licensed to operate before parting with a single cent for the "deposit". If the company cannot produced a contract before the work is done be very wary. Til today i have not been able to estab if the company is licensed - ie having a company account does not means that it is licensed.
c. I am also suspicious that the GST he is collecting, is it a way to boost the income - Of course to those of the REIN member who might have used his services before might wonder just like me. Think about it?
d. He is told my broker and me that he is doing all of Russel Property that needs to be renovated. In hindsight? Really
e. Always have a Plan B and never give up - in fact wifey had already given up on ever seeing the $.

Please give me your comments and ideas from your experience. Cheers
style_emoticons
d-->

Hi Alex,

Great post. Sorry to hear about your bad experience. Your A-D list is useful. The main point that resonates is that we all need to follow our due diligence; be it buying a property, choosing a repairman, home inspector or even life partner.

REIN is a pretty good group with many folks ranging in experience from masters to novices. Like any group, there are bound to be a few bad apples in the lot.

I too have had a bad experience with a fellow REIN member that is/was a property manager and a renovator. Possibly at one point he had his act together and did his job well. When I started working with him he was void of integrity and ultimately ended up costing me a lot of money. It was expensive education as I should have stuck to my principles (and the REIN dogma) of conducting full due diligence, but I softened a bit on this guy as he was a `REIN Diamond Member`. I want to be clear that this wasn`t a REIN problem, this was a `me` problem of not checking him out better.

So, what do we do? We use REIN as a networking and information sharing tool. We use the REIN system to buy properties. We continue to operate our business as professionals and do the groundwork on both members and non-members as we would normally do.

Part of me thinks it`s a good idea to type the name and company of who I had a bad experience with, but then I see it could just breed a commiserating outlet and defeat the purpose of warning people - when ultimately we should just rely on sticking to our principles and due diligence.

REIN is a decent group and the percentile of dodgy people I believe (I hope) is quite low. But, that doesn`t mean having a `Group Think` attitude or a `big love-in` is the answer. Share ideas, strategies and tools. Work both together and independently to raise the bar of quality for the relationships we make in and out of this group.

And.... be careful not to be a `sheep`.

Thanks,
 

HeatherBrandt

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Aug 30, 2007
Messages
320
REIN is a decent group and the percentile of dodgy people I believe (I hope) is quite low. But, that doesn`t mean having a `Group Think` attitude or a `big love-in` is the answer. Share ideas, strategies and tools. Work both together and independently to raise the bar of quality for the relationships we make in and out of this group.

And.... be careful not to be a `sheep`.

Thanks,


Excellent point! I have had the same thoughts/attitude but could not have conveyed it so succinctly. Having a somewhat pessimistic nature (take the test in: Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman to assess yours) I find due diligence a comfort in deciding if a person is displaying healthy optimism or wearing extreme rose coloured glasses.

Thanks to both of you for posting.

Heather
 

GarthChapman

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Thanks for sharing your story - and it is great to see how you have absorbed lessons from it.

It`s an excellent reminder to us all that REIN awards do not infer good character or capabilities. Always always do your due diligence!
 

DonCampbell

Investor, Analyst, Author, Philanthropist
Staff member
REIN Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
2,005
Fantastic post,
Something we can all learn from.

Due Diligence is critical in ALL areas of investing. From choosing the property, the contractor, the accountant, the lawyer, the property manager.

And not just a small little bit of due diligence.... asking around (especially since you are lucky to be surrounded with 3,300 fellow investors) and digging deep.

Also now you can protect other Members by telling others about your experience so no one else gets caught.

At the Western Canada Conference we presented a checklist of key questions designed to assist you in doing due diligence on your real estate agent. We`ve provide a checklist to doing checks on potential Joint Venture Partners - this would be a good place to start for choosing questions for your contractor.

CMHC provides a wonderful section on `renovations` on their web site including sample contracts etc. All Members should have this page on the bookmarks in the web-browser CMHC Renovations Checklists



Also NO money should ever change hands without a clear and detailed contract in your hands, without it you have limited protection.


Thanks for your great post!
 

brentdavies

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Aug 31, 2007
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Service Alberta with the provincial government requires contractors who take deposits on renovation work to be licensced and provide a bond to the provinical government. If you paid a contractor up front and no work taked, report this contractor, and help protect the rest of the province from bad contractors.
They can be reached at 1-877-427-4088 or www.servicealberta.gov.ca/969.cfm
 

dplummer

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Sep 19, 2007
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Never,never,never give any contractor 50% up front. As a restoration contractor myself I tell you this. If a contractor tells you he/she needs a large down stroke to buy materials-RUN as fast as you can away. A schedule of payment based on amount of work completed is the safest way to go.

Doug
 

JPAQ

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Sep 4, 2007
Messages
65
Great Story Alex,

I was "taken to the cleaners" from a person in WOLFS clothing. I am wondering if it was the same person. Rein is a great network to be associated with. There are allot of outstanding people and community leaders in the association. It is the best real-estate association out there. I did my research however I was still stung. It is good to bring these things to light so other people can learn from these mistakes. Real-estate is a serious business. The company that stole from my wife and I was Timberwolf Renovation`s INC. The owners name is Rick. I believe it is good to get this out in the open to make sure other Rein members are not taken for a ride from this person. If there is any one out there who has been scammed by this person please contact me as I would like to talk to you.


Regards,

Jason Paquette
 

alexchee

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Sep 23, 2007
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QUOTE (JPAQ @ Oct 17 2008, 05:30 AM) Great Story Alex,

I was "taken to the cleaners" from a person in WOLFS clothing. I am wondering if it was the same person. Rein is a great network to be associated with. There are allot of outstanding people and community leaders in the association. It is the best real-estate association out there. I did my research however I was still stung. It is good to bring these things to light so other people can learn from these mistakes. Real-estate is a serious business. The company that stole from my wife and I was Timberwolf Renovation`s INC. The owners name is Rick. I believe it is good to get this out in the open to make sure other Rein members are not taken for a ride from this person. If there is any one out there who has been scammed by this person please contact me as I would like to talk to you.


Regards,

Jason Paquette

Can any of the rein member advised on what is the consequence of collecting GST if the contractor is not registered? i have a suspicion that this company might not have a GST no. and is collecting the GST.
 

JPAQ

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QUOTE (alexchee @ Oct 20 2008, 12:00 AM) Can any of the rein member advised on what is the consequence of collecting GST if the contractor is not registered? i have a suspicion that this company might not have a GST no. and is collecting the GST.
Hello everyone,

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up. The person owns Timberwolf Renovations INC now has started a home inspection company by the name of Hide n` Seek Home Inspections Services LTD. If you intend to use them PLEASE DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!
 

JPAQ

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QUOTE (JPAQ @ Oct 20 2008, 06:20 PM) Hello everyone,

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up. The person owns Timberwolf Renovations INC now has started a home inspection company by the name of Hide n` Seek Home Inspections Services LTD. If you intend to use them PLEASE DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!
Hello Alex,

I have requested Timberwolf to give me there GST number for my tax purposes. They have never gave me this information. You might want to log a complaint with Revenue Canada. There PH# is 1 866 453 0450.

Regards,

Jason
 

kopilas

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Aug 29, 2007
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DaveRhydderch

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Dec 10, 2007
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Good post. The thing that really jumped out at me was the need for 50% down. That is a huge chunk of change before anything has been done.

As a side, I`ve come to the conclusion that renos aren`t worth the time for me. So much time and hassle.....(just me though)
 
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