Would you proactively contact a Structural Engineer in this case for an assessment?

[Nir]

Hi All,

I have a dilemma regarding a bowed wall in one of my properties (Triplex).
One of the external walls is bowed, can clearly be seen from outside (it`s a brick wall, wood frame).

The tenants did not complain about it and it has been like that for at least 3 years (based on a property appraisal report I have from 3 years ago although I only purchased the property 1.5 years ago.)

Would you contact a Structural Engineer in this case to assess the situation and provide a report?

I am 99% sure the report would only be between the structural engineer and me although it is a small town and he is also the one the city works with(!)
On the other hand, I`m assuming if I contact him, then once I get the report, if there is no recommendation GREAT, but if the report shows I have to do different things to repair then suddenly it is my responsibility to fix everything within a certain period of time(!?)

Obviously if there is a serious problem, as landlords we want and should know about it. Still, would you contact a Structural Engineer to assess the situation in this case, or not?

THANKS,
Neil

ps. there is also a minor crack in one of the horizontal beams in the basement that, if I contact a structural engineer, will be checked as well.

 

[realfortin]

QUOTE (investmart @ Mar 11 2009, 10:48 AM) Hi All,

I have a dilemma regarding a bowed wall in one of my properties (Triplex).
One of the external walls is bowed, can clearly be seen from outside (it`s a brick wall, wood frame).

The tenants did not complain about it and it has been like that for at least 3 years (based on a property appraisal report I have from 3 years ago although I only purchased the property 1.5 years ago.)

Would you contact a Structural Engineer in this case to assess the situation and provide a report?

I am 99% sure the report would only be between the structural engineer and me although it is a small town and he is also the one the city works with(!)
On the other hand, I`m assuming if I contact him, then once I get the report, if there is no recommendation GREAT, but if the report shows I have to do different things to repair then suddenly it is my responsibility to fix everything within a certain period of time(!?)

Obviously if there is a serious problem, as landlords we want and should know about it. Still, would you contact a Structural Engineer to assess the situation in this case, or not?

THANKS,
Neil

ps. there is also a minor crack in one of the horizontal beams in the basement that, if I contact a structural engineer, will be checked as well.
Neil,
I have a property that is exactly the same way. The pervious owners had a Structural Engineer check it. Essentially he said that since the walls inside have no recent cracks or show signs of settling, any movement likely happened a long time ago and the property is settled in positionand should not cause concern.

Do the interior walls show and movement or stress?
I`d save the Structural Engineer until you want to sell the place so you can show the next buyer there is nothing to be afraid as the building is sound.
tough call, do no or do later.

 

[grantala]

As the previous post said, if there hasn`t been recent deficiencies appearing in the wall it probably occured in the normal settlement processm at the beginning of the building`s lifespan. I wonder... was this wall bowed when you purchased the property 1.5 years ago??

You should look at the interior and exterior of the affected wall to determine a) cracks b) width of cracks c) length of cracks. Those will tell you alot about the walls activity.

There alot of things a structural engineer can advise you on, and I think it`s certainly prudent to bring one in.

Also, the minor crack in the horizontal beam (assuming it`s wood) is probably ok. If the crack runs parallel with the beam it`ll be part of the normal settlement/drying/nature of wood properties, however if the `minor` crack is perpendicular, or runs up and down, that isn`t minor.

Recommendation: Make the call.

-Greg

 

[invst4profit]

I would not.

When you bought the property what info did you ask for from the previous owner regarding the wall and were you satisfied with what you received?
What has changed to prompt you to question the situation?

 

[Nir]

Thank You Everyone!

Greg, (`invst4profit`), what did i ask the owner to provide? The owner was unfortunately dead, it was an estate sale. (still i got an appraisal as mentioned and had a detailed home inspection myself). Nothing changed in the past 1.5 years(!) the only reason I am asking about it now is I have some free time now and I guess it was just not on my top priority list (and based on the feedback above should still not be a top priority??)

Thoughts?

Regards,
Neil

 

[GarthChapman]

If you are concerned about safety and/or liability, then have the inspection done. It really should have been done when you bought the property. Most of us do not know enough to do effective building inspections ourselves.

 

[Nir]

Hi Garth,

Do you mean an inspection should have been done by a structural engineer in addition to the opinion I got from the certified home inspector during the regular home inspection?

I`m not really concerned about safety, just curious if in most cases of a slightly bowed wall (assuming there is no safety concern) investors wait and fix it only when they really need to (i.e. brick starting to come out) or do you fix it earlier in order to avoid higher costs later(?) - that is my main dilemma.

Thanks,
Neil

 

[GarthChapman]

QUOTE (investmart @ Apr 10 2009, 01:08 PM) Hi Garth,

Do you mean an inspection should have been done by a structural engineer in addition to the opinion I got from the certified home inspector during the regular home inspection?

I`m not really concerned about safety, just curious if in most cases of a slightly bowed wall (assuming there is no safety concern) investors wait and fix it only when they really need to (i.e. brick starting to come out) or do you fix it earlier in order to avoid higher costs later(?) - that is my main dilemma.

Thanks,
Neil

Neil, I thought you wrote that you did your own inspection at time of purchase (apologies for getting that wrong). If you hired a professional inspector that should normally be sufficient.

What did the inspector have to say about the bowed wall and the cracked beam at the time of the inspection?

 

[Nir]

Hi Garth,

The inspector mentioned the following in his report:

- Regarding the bowed brick wall he wrote: "brick falling in NE corner, bowing north side, brick work should be assessed by Competent Mason to estimate extent and cost of repair." well, the area where brick was coming out was already fixed well (by not necessarily by a "competent mason" as he mentioned). My question is regarding the bowed wall not the area where brick came out as this was already fixed. not sure if he meant "assesses by a competent mason" mainly to assess area i already fixed or mainly the bowed wall.

- Regarding the beam, he mentioned "flat 2 x 10 - check & repair B2, 1, M."
B2 (improve, repair or replace code) meaning "component will require repair or replacement as maintenance due to normal wear and tear."
1 (priority code) meaning "a condition which if not corrected in the near future may result in further deterioration or damage to itself or other components of the building"
M (cost code) meaning "regular maintenance item or a minor cost item.

He was really good but not a structural engineer. How would you proceed in this case:
a. wait, do nothing
b. hire a structural eng. to assess OR
c. just get estimates from carpenter and mason - the specific professions required to repair?

THANKS,
Neil

 

[IanSzabo]

In this situation a would be extremely cautious moving forward. There are several ways to move forward
1) Hire a General Contractor that has experience in overseeing jobs like this. Unless you are going to oversee the project yourself ,get permits, hire someone to do the drawing, Manage Sub trades Etc
2) Hire a draft person first, apply for permits than interview sub-trades, General Contractor or Project Manager

Ether one of these have will work depending on how much time you have, experience etc
The big picture here is that there sounds like you have a structural issue, is there a bathroom above this area? A lot of times bathrooms are added & the structure has been removed weakening the joists.
I teach a course on” How Not To Get Scammed by A Contractor” E-mail me & I will send you a copy
Sincerely Ian Szabo
[email protected]

 

[Nir]

Thank you Ian, I just sent you an email.

However, i do not think the crack in the beam in the basement is that difficult/complicated to fix. basically a $500 job - adding a steel post under the crack should resolve the issue. well, at least that`s what i heard.

Regarding the bowed wall - why are you against contacting a competent Mason directly as the home inspector suggested? is it mainly a potential trust issue/conflict of interest?

Regards,
Neil

 

[IanSzabo]

It is extremely difficult to determine a strucheral issue or any renovation in a paragraph or so.
. You can hire a mansion; I would need allot more information, on site inspection, home inspection report etc.
As for the beam issue I have opened up ceilings & found fence posts as beams, shipping skids for joists. You name it people cheap out on the most important things.
Supporting the beam could cost $500 it is hard to say,
Hope this helps

 

[Dan_Eisenhauer]

When I first got into this industry I worked for one of Halifax`s biggest appraisal firms. The owner and I went out to appraise a vacant home, which I thought was lovely. Were were just about finished when my boss spotted something odd. I no longer remember what caught his eye.

He went into the basement and noted the uphill foundation wall had quite a bow in it. We then went outside and discovered that the middle of foundation wall had moved inwards about 3 - 6"at the widest point in the bow. The problem was pressure coming from uphill. (That was my last association with that house, and I have no idea how or if the problem was solved. The house is still there.)

I suggest your bldg has some problem that caused that bow, and it is the cause that needs addressing, not the symptom, although that may need fixing at some point. You don`t tell us if the movement is inward or outward. My guess is that it is inward as outward would be next to impossible.

You need to figure out what is causing the wall to move. My guess is that there is some pressure causation that may need relieving. Once relieved, you may not need to fix the foundation. But, only a structural engineer could tell you that.

Another question, which you don`t know the answer to is, "How long has this been going on?" It may be stable, in which case you probably have little to worry about. If it is fairly recent, then you do have a problem. My bet it that is a long term thing.

BUT, you do need a professional to look at it. Do you hire one with a potetnial conflict of interest? That is your call. How far are you from another option? It may be your only option.

 

[Nir]

Hi Dan,

I have no concern regarding foundation at all! As mentioned earlier (above) it`s been the same for years!

The wall is actually bowed outward and it is not the wood it is just the "cosmetic" brick layer. the reason is the building is 100 years old.

(it`s a wood frame home excellent concrete foundation, no problem with the wood as well, just the brick very slowly coming out - a very common brick issue with older homes)

Would you do nothing, hire a mason only or a structural engineer initially and then, if needed, a mason?

Thanks,
Neil

 

[Dan_Eisenhauer]

Still not knowing what the problem is, I would hire a professional to give me an opinion about the cause and long term possibilities.

 

[Nir]

QUOTE (Dan_Eisenhauer @ Apr 12 2009, 11:06 PM) Still not knowing what the problem and is, I would hire a professional to give me an opinion about the cause and long term possibilities.

What profession? mason, carpenter or structural engineer? thanks.

 

[Dan_Eisenhauer]

Neil, I asked this question in another thread recently. What does your logic tell you?

You know much better than I do what your concerns are. I`m guessing it is a structural issue, based on my current understanding. A Mike Holmes might give you the definitive answer. But, what if your carpenter is not of that quality. The same thing applies to a mason.

My thought would be to go with the guy who is supposed to know structures, and not just how to assemble them.

 

[Nir]

Thank You Dan for the support,

You are right - I guess I asked enough questions about the same topic...to say the least

I`ll either pay a structural engineer $500 for a professional report (however he will probably, to be on the safe side, advice that I replace the entire brick with something (forgot the name) - the most expensive solution but it does cover his A$$

) or just find and consult a contractor I trust in the area for that purpose..

Regards,
Neil

 

[thejules]

Steenhof would be a good firm to go with. They`re expensive, but very professional.

 

[Nir]

Hi Jules. thanks.
Neil