Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!

Just Starting Out

hondavice

0
Registered
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
2
Hi everyone,

I`m new to all this, so please be patient with me. I`ve enjoyed reading what many of you have said on the forum.

I have a few newbie questions that I`m hoping some of you may have opinions on. First though, let me explain my situation so that you`ll have some idea of my starting point.

I`ve been at my job now for over 4 years and things are very stable there. I bought a house 4 years ago and have been living in it since. Between mortgage payments, prepayments and increasing market value, I estimate that I have about $200K in equity in my home right now. I have no trouble affording my mortgage these days, and my work is very stable.

That brings us to today, and to be honest, I`m bored with living such a basic life. I`ve always been interested in investing and real estate, so at the beginning of this summer I decided that I would like to try and pursue real estate investing as a way of getting some extra cash flow. So far, I`ve done a bit of reading and have been watching the types of properties that are coming available in my area pretty closely. I do have some questions though that I hope someone more experienced than I can help me with.

-First question: Should I start big? When I do some basic calculations, it always seems to me that the best way to go would be to purchase a multi-unit building (fourplex, etc) as opposed to a single-unit structure and work from there, even though this would require me to start out with a larger mortgage. But how much debt should I really take on? I can work the basic numbers easy enough, but without experience, I`m worried about hidden costs and little expenses that may come up.

-Second question: Should I start a business? Do people that take real estate investing seriously carry their properties in their own name or do they manage everything through a business? What would you suggest for someone just starting out? I know there will be tax and liability advantages either way, but what about the ability to get financing, etc? Any thoughts would be very appreciated.

-Third Question: Are products like landlord insurance worthwhile? Obviously I will insure the property itself, but should I pay to insure the rental income?

-Fourth Question: Is there a distinct advantage between buildings that have individually metered utilities and those that do not? I like the idea of tenants being responsible for their own utilities, but at the same time, I can see the advantages of centrally managing such things. My gut tells me that individually metered utilities would be better in the long run, to avoid the damages caused by tenants leaving windows open all winter long and cutting into my profits.


-Fifth Question: I like books. Can anyone suggest some `must read` material that I should become familiar with? I believe that it`s good to get educated, then get busy.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
Start small- you may hate being a LL and investing/ Landlording can have a very steep learning curve compounded by numbers. The bigger the investment the bigger the gamble. Think of it as starting a business. 80% fail in the first 5 years.

No reason to start with a business. Business taxer are far too high. Banks are less likely to provide mortgage to business so they expect personal guarantees.

Rental income insurance is a waste of money in my opinion. Won`t pay when you think they should. Ask if anyone on here has ever actually collected on it.

Never buy a property that tenants do not pay utilities. Tenants do not care about wasting something they do not pay for. No tenant will ever feel sorry for a LL.

Get Don`s book. Consider joining REIN after researching this forum.
 
Ask ten people get ten answers

My perspective only:

1) Work with a realtor / mortgage broker / property manager experienced in the particular property type you want to invest in. They can help you estimate costs better, show you advantages/disadvantages of different paths and point you in the right direction.

2) Check with your accountant and lawyer. Most people do NOT start a business.

3) Generally yes

4) Yes but what do the numbers of a particular property tell you? A building with one meter with a higher return might be the better choice !

5) Your asking this on REIN forum ?




QUOTE (hondavice @ Jun 30 2009, 04:10 PM) Hi everyone,

I`m new to all this, so please be patient with me. I`ve enjoyed reading what many of you have said on the forum.

I have a few newbie questions that I`m hoping some of you may have opinions on. First though, let me explain my situation so that you`ll have some idea of my starting point.

I`ve been at my job now for over 4 years and things are very stable there. I bought a house 4 years ago and have been living in it since. Between mortgage payments, prepayments and increasing market value, I estimate that I have about $200K in equity in my home right now. I have no trouble affording my mortgage these days, and my work is very stable.

That brings us to today, and to be honest, I`m bored with living such a basic life. I`ve always been interested in investing and real estate, so at the beginning of this summer I decided that I would like to try and pursue real estate investing as a way of getting some extra cash flow. So far, I`ve done a bit of reading and have been watching the types of properties that are coming available in my area pretty closely. I do have some questions though that I hope someone more experienced than I can help me with.

-First question: Should I start big? When I do some basic calculations, it always seems to me that the best way to go would be to purchase a multi-unit building (fourplex, etc) as opposed to a single-unit structure and work from there, even though this would require me to start out with a larger mortgage. But how much debt should I really take on? I can work the basic numbers easy enough, but without experience, I`m worried about hidden costs and little expenses that may come up.

-Second question: Should I start a business? Do people that take real estate investing seriously carry their properties in their own name or do they manage everything through a business? What would you suggest for someone just starting out? I know there will be tax and liability advantages either way, but what about the ability to get financing, etc? Any thoughts would be very appreciated.

-Third Question: Are products like landlord insurance worthwhile? Obviously I will insure the property itself, but should I pay to insure the rental income?

-Fourth Question: Is there a distinct advantage between buildings that have individually metered utilities and those that do not? I like the idea of tenants being responsible for their own utilities, but at the same time, I can see the advantages of centrally managing such things. My gut tells me that individually metered utilities would be better in the long run, to avoid the damages caused by tenants leaving windows open all winter long and cutting into my profits.


-Fifth Question: I like books. Can anyone suggest some `must read` material that I should become familiar with? I believe that it`s good to get educated, then get busy.

Thanks in advance for your help.
 
QUOTE (hondavice @ Jun 30 2009, 02:10 PM)
-First question: Should I start big? ..




you always start small .. possibly a small multi-unit building .. yes .. but better a few townhouses or condos or houses first !



read this here:



5 ways to make money
-Second question: Should I start a business? ..


it is a business . what you are asking is: shall I incorporate ? The answer is: likely not .. but you must have a corporation for a building ..



read this: Pro`s and Con`s of creating a company for real estate holding:


-Third Question: Are products like landlord insurance worthwhile? ...


any property has to carry insurance.




QUOTE (hondavice @ Jun 30 2009, 02:10 PM)
-Fourth Question: Is there a distinct advantage between buildings that have individually metered utilities and those that do not? ...


yes .. sub-metered is better as the tenant has an incentive to keep water or heat consumption low !!




QUOTE (hondavice @ Jun 30 2009, 02:10 PM)
-Fifth Question: I like books. Can anyone suggest some 'must read' material ...


There's quite a few .. Don Campbell .. Raymond Aaron ... David Lindahl . Allan Jacques .. Steve Berges .. Douglas Gray .. mine (when I get to it in 2010 or 2011)

..
 
Hi Hondavice,

1. I believe a 4-plex as in today`s environment positive cash flow is more important than ever, and considering you sound mature enough even though it`s your first. remember due to advantage to size it should actually be much cheaper than 4 separate condos purchased one after the other.
2. My opinion is that unless you have a more unique situation where an accountant should be consulted, in most cases it does not really matter if you purchase under your name or a corp. different investors have different opinions on this one as there are pro`s and con`s to each.
3. Don`t worry about a special insurance, at this point, other than a property insurance. it usually includes everything you need (or at least everything most investors need).
4. RE investing is a LOT about numbers. it is not whether it has separate meters or not, it`s more about what is the expected CAP? example: property with one meter generates an expected 10% CAP (simply analyzing past bills with all those "thefts" mentioned and open windows..) and the same property other side of the road with separate meters generates 5% CAP. obviously the one without separate meters is much better. so it really depends on the property analysis and I wouldn`t exclude those without separate meters before doing that minimal analysis (some here will disagree, just my opinion).
5. "Real Estate Investing in Canada" by Don Campbell. In my case, I wouldn`t start investing in RE without it! A SUPERB book clearly explaining, step by step, how to buy Real Estate.
Later in life I recommend: "Commercial Real Estate Investing in Canada" by Pierre and Claude Boiron

Good luck,
Neil
 
The problem with any unit in Ontario having utilities included is a bad tenant will stop paying rent, wait till the board finally evicts him and will leave owing months of rent and a utility bill through the roof because he left all the windows open and heated the house with the oven for the last month during the winter. OR leaves energy tap and toilet running for a month.
Sorry but all the advice you get suggesting utilities included may be ok is from landlords that have not had a tenant go bad or worse ended up with a professional tenant in Ontario.
Having separate metering in Ontario is not about cap rates. It is about protecting yourself in a province where the LTB is extremely tenant friendly.
Forget about cash flow and cap rates.....protect yourself from criminal tenants, grow ops etc. Do not have utilities included in this province.
 
QUOTE (invst4profit @ Jun 30 2009, 02:26 PM) Start small- you may hate being a LL and investing/ Landlording can have a very steep learning curve compounded by numbers. The bigger the investment the bigger the gamble. Think of it as starting a business. 80% fail in the first 5 years.

Rental income insurance is a waste of money in my opinion. Won`t pay when you think they should. Ask if anyone on here has ever actually collected on it.

Thank you for your answers, invst4profit. I agree that I should be wary of the learning curve. One follow-up question that comes to mind (which I pose to all of you, if you have an opinion): What would the average time commitment be for a standard rental unit, for example a condo? More specifically, what type of time do tenants absorb? I know people that are landlords, and some of them seem to have really aweful tenants. Cheques bouncing, utility bills suddenly skyrocketing, things `breaking` all the time. Is this normal?

This brings another question to my mind: Should I only look at property that is within a practical distance? I live in Calgary, but I can see that there are opportunities not only in Calgary, but perhaps more so in the surrounding regions. If, for sake of argument, I bought a place in Red Deer, would I be driven half mad driving there weekly to deal with tenant demands/issues? Accompanying this concern: will I ever be able to vacation again?

QUOTE (housingrental @ Jun 30 2009, 02:33 PM) 1) Work with a realtor / mortgage broker / property manager experienced in the particular property type you want to invest in. They can help you estimate costs better, show you advantages/disadvantages of different paths and point you in the right direction.

How does one go about finding a really good realtor. Calgary is full of them. We went through two of them when we bought our home. First one was terrible. Second, fantastic, though I`m not sure that investment property is something he deals a lot in. Thoughts?


QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Jun 30 2009, 03:35 PM) you always start small .. possibly a small multi-unit building .. yes .. but better a few townhouses or condos or houses first !

it is a business . what you are asking is: shall I incorporate ? The answer is: likely not .. but you must have a corporation for a building ..
any property has to carry insurance.

yes .. sub-metered is better as the tenant has an incentive to keep water or heat consumption low !!

Thank you, Thomas, for your comments. Starting small (which after reviewing all posts I`ve interpreted to be anywhere from condo to 4-plex) seems to be the consensus here. I appreciate your viewpoint of targetting condos and townhouses first. Would you (or anyone else) say that purchasing small units (condo, townhouse,etc) first makes it easy to purchase subsequent units later?

Thank you for your thoughts on incorporating. To clarify when you say that a person must have a corporation for a building, I assume you`re referring `a building` as being something larger than a 4-plex, for example a large building that the buyer intends to turn to condos?

Sub metering sounds like the way to go, whenever possible. Thanks for your opinion.


QUOTE (investmart @ Jul 1 2009, 08:08 PM) Hi Hondavice,

5. "Real Estate Investing in Canada" by Don Campbell. In my case, I wouldn`t start investing in RE without it! A SUPERB book clearly explaining, step by step, how to buy Real Estate.
Later in life I recommend: "Commercial Real Estate Investing in Canada" by Pierre and Claude Boiron

Good luck,
Neil

Thank you. I will take a look at these.
 
QUOTE (hondavice @ Jul 2 2009, 06:55 PM) This brings another question to my mind: Should I only look at property that is within a practical distance? I live in Calgary, but I can see that there are opportunities not only in Calgary, but perhaps more so in the surrounding regions. If, for sake of argument, I bought a place in Red Deer, would I be driven half mad driving there weekly to deal with tenant demands/issues? Accompanying this concern: will I ever be able to vacation again?

How does one go about finding a really good realtor. Calgary is full of them. We went through two of them when we bought our home. First one was terrible. Second, fantastic, though I`m not sure that investment property is something he deals a lot in. Thoughts?

It seems to me that it makes sense to purchase your first one or two properties in the immediate vicinity of where you live, and since you live in Calgary, (as do I) there should be a reasonable number of opportunities. If you wanted to buy elsewhere after you had some experience managing property yourself, you could hire a property manager and be better equipped to supervise them from afar.

As for finding a realtor, the best way is likely to ask people who have done what you are planning to do for recommendations. You should also find a mortgage broker with experience working with rentals, and could find that the same way.

If you`d like I can email you the names of my mortgage broker/realtor, if you send me you email address to mbumstead "at" gmail dot com, replacing the at and dot with @ and . for spam avoidance reasons. My wife and I got started earlier this year buying condos in Calgary, (we currently have 2) so if that`s what you`re interested in I might be able to help with any market specific questions.

Michael
 
Back
Top Bottom