TD Insurance - electrical requirement: upgrade each unit from 60amp ---> 100 amp!

[Nir]

Hello Everyone,

TD Insurance requires me to upgrade each unit in a Triplex in Orillia from 60 amp to 100 amp. Currently, in total, the triplex has 100 amp so basically my understanding is they require that I upgrade the entire triplex from 100 amp to 200 amp (or more).

The tenants have been living there for a long time managing well with the current electrical system (100amp in total). Is this requirement of 100 amp per unit a standard requirement or should I be able to find another insurance company who will provide a decent coverage with the current electrical system (100 amp or 125amp in total)?

Lastly, TD`s price is very good only around $60 a month(!), the insurance company the previous owner used charged more but perhaps did not have an issue with the electrical system or was not aware of any issue(?)

THANKS & REGARDS,
Neil

 

[invst4profit]

I have found it is necessary to shop around when it comes to insurance coverage when they make special requests as in your case. My best results have been through a broker that will do it for you. Also it is wise to re-shop the market every couple of years as every company tends to increase there rates once they have you as a client.
Loyalty to one company is not necessarily an advantage, although they may try to convince you otherwise. Test the market on a regular basis to keep your costs in check.
Higher rates may be a lot less financially painful than the cost to do unnecessary upgrades.

 

[Nir]

Thanks Greg, Good point!

I will wait to see if another experience investor with experience in electrical systems will reply as well.. The reason is I am interested to know if, regardless of the insurance requirements, 100amp per unit is really/actually important to have(?)

{As mentioned, the property currently has 100amp in total for all 3 units!}

Regards,
Neil

 

[invst4profit]

You seem confident that it is safe considering it is/has been in use for some time so it may boil down to
"if it isn`t broke don`t fix it".
Sometimes getting into work like this can open up a real can of worms, one thing leading to another if you know what I mean.

 

[Nir]

Thanks again Greg, I like your approach and obviously hope you are correct and that I will not have to fix it as this type of improvement can be very expensive.

Neil

 

[wilkinson]

Hello Greg and Neil

60 amps for a triplex is a little small and I would maybe budget in the future to expand the service. Typically house insurance companies like to see 100 amps for single dwellings now, not to mention three units.

When the building was built 60 amps was more than likely enough, but back then they did not have coffee machines, computers with printers, hair dryers, treadmills, dishwashers etc.

For an unbiased answer the best solution is to call your local ESA inpspector (Electrical Safety Authority) or a home inspector. Although this will cost you for the inspection, at least you know that you won`t be sold something you don`t need. Ask them to generate document that the building is safe and this may be enough to satisfy your insurance carrier.

60 amps is not dangerous as long as no one has "modified" the system. IE, put in larger fuses than the service allows for. A lot of times in older homes the problem is not necessarily that the incoming service is too small, but that the distribution of the power within the house is not up to today`s standards. For example you may upgrade a service from 60 to 100 amps, spend all that money and still have the circuits trip when you use the toaster and the microwave at the same time. The danger comes when the tennants get tired of not being able to make toast and heat up dinner at the same time and start putting in larger fuses than there should be. Eventually what happens is that the wires inside the walls that are only rated for 15 amps but which are always being loaded up to 25 amps (because the tennant put a larger fuse in) starts to break down and get hot.

As you can imagine, this becomes dangereous.

When you inspect your property, check the fuse box. Even if you don`t have to upgrade to 100 amps to satisfy your insurance, maybe do it anyway to be able to install breakers. This way the tennants won`t be screwing up the wires inside your walls. Ask the tennants about circuits that are "always tripping" and talk to the electrician who is doing the service upgrade about adding some new receptacles in the kitchen while he is there.

Hope this helps. (I have been an electrician for 20 years)(no, I don`t do houses anymore)

Paul Wilkinson

 

[wilkinson]

Need to reply to myself here-I misread the original post

60 amps per unit should be adequate. Insurance companies use the 60 amps as a flag because that tells them that the electrical system is not new (utilities no longer provide 60 amp services)

They do not want you to have 100 amps, they want to have safe electrical system. I would have a contractor or an inspector review the property, write a letter that he has reviewed it and that he deems it safe, and have him sign it.

As I stated above, the danger is not whether it is 60 or 100 amps, the problem is the oversized fuses etc. for the circuits within the house.

Paul

 

[willy]

Ontario Fire Code may require you to get an electrical inspection done (for duplexes it definately does, not sure about tri`s). If your building has passed this inspection as it is, then really there is no concern for safety, and the demand from your insurance company may be unreasonable.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/source/re...gs_r07213_e.htm