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Tenants disturbing another set of tenants

G

goodplanning

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Oct 22, 2008
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Hello all,
I am located in GTA, Ontario, and have been reading the REIN forums for the last few months and finally decided to join.

We are new to RE investing and have come across a problem that we need guidance to. In a duplex, the tenants in the 2nd floor apt. is fighting and making lots of noise by shouting, swearing and slamming of doors etc. which is really disturbing the tenants in the first floor apt. This was occasional in the beginning, but apparently has become almost daily. On top of that, the tenant above has been knocking on the door of the tenant below, to ask to "borrow" things like food, toilet paper, etc. The tenant above, are also late paying their rent and we`ve had one L & T board hearing already. They can not be evicted since they`ve paid within the dates allowed, though always on the very last day. Both sets of tenants moved in this past June (above) and July(below), and problems with the tenants above started after 1 month. Tenants above, is like your nightmare tenants, they`ve lied, been late with the rent after the first month, threatened to damage our property, and to waste water and heat by leaving the taps running and windows open.

Has anyone had experience with filing an application for Notice to Terminate a Tenancy Early (N5) because tenant "substantially interfered with the reasonable enjoyment of the residential complex of another tenant"? The tenants in apartment below have brought the problems to our attention since the end of August, but they are afraid to confront the tenants above because of fear of retailiation,they are great tenants and we don`t want to lose them.
Because we don`t live on-site, the tenants below have agreed to document the events for us to use in the notice to terminate.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. If anyone has used a paralegal in Barrie, with success, please let me know also. Thank you.
 
I have also experienced a similar situation that has not been completely resolved yet. But my suggestion is to have your "good" tenants call the police whenever there is a disturbance if it is warranted. It`s no different than if you personally are having problems with a noisy and/or problematic neighbour. Let the police visit these people and the noise problem should eventually stop. If you have enough of those police visits, you have more ground to stand on.

The way I understand the way Tribunals work, is that they always try and take the side of the tenant first. So you need to show that they are a problem. You also want to show that you are trying to mediate the problem and not just trying to evict them. Unfortunately, fairly of paying rent on time is resolved with T4`s. If you produce enough of those, you have more to stand on.

Unfortunately you are suffering the same kind of problem I am. I have accepted that it was my fault for not being thorough enough. You may have been much more thorough in your screening process but never really know if someone is going to be a problem, even if they had a decent past record.

I have to tell you though, my tenant has stoped being a "problem" ever since the police paid a couple visits. In fact, she is now so scared that I have enough grounds for evicting her that she has completely made a 180 and is now the most peaceful tenant who hasnt caused any problems for any of my other tenants. So...I guess I`m lucky that way...hopefully things don`t change and go back to the way things were before
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Can you offer them money to leave without issues (say $1,000) within a certain period of time? mention an irrevocability date (i.e. let me know by Friday, my offer is valid till Friday if you’re interested). Explain to them when putting the offer that they will have to leave soon anyway due to their behavior already reported to police (and report it or have the neighbors report it as Joe from Toronto suggested).

Unfortunately, might cost you more to deal with them if they stay. Good luck.
 
My motto with bad tenants is "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished"
If word gets around that you are paying off bad tenants, and it will, you will have a long line of bad tenants waiting in line to rent.
In Ontario three N4s (latest or NSF) is sufficient to evict. You should have sent a N4 at 12:01 pm the 2nd of each month they have been late with there rent.

Having the good tenant call the police is not fair to them. Landlords must deal with this type of situation head on. It isn`t always easy being a good landlord but you owe it to your tenants.
At this point in time you should have confronted the tenant several times and should have sent them letters of warning regarding eviction. All this will be used in evidence.

Take the eviction to the LTB. Get there advice in advance,follow the rules to the letter, do not compromise on your goal (eviction) and not only should you be successful but you will have learned another lesson about being a good landlord. If the tenant causes damage consider the value of chasing them down in small claims court.

Make sure all future tenants are informed that you evict tenants that do not follow your rules (and sue for damages) and both you and your tenants will benefit.
Unfortunately evictions are part of the business and as such any landlord that is not comfortable with the idea of confrontation should consider another line of work.
 
Thank you for your input and advice.

Regarding calling the police, I just rec`d a phone call from the good tenants saying that the bad tenants actually made a complaint to the police about noise from them with 3 police officers knocking at their door around midnight last night! The bad tenants may have caught wind of our plan to submit the notice for termination. Now it may be rougher going forward.

I think I tend to agreed that paying them off rewards them for being leeches to the rest of society, so that is not likely to happen.

So far we have submitted 2- N4 so maybe that route is the way to go. I didn`t realize that 3 would be grounds for eviction providing they`ve eventually paid.
 
I would make the upstairs tenants as uncomfortable as possible, sending them warning letters, 24 hour notices to view the property to check for damage, etc. I would be upfront with them and tell them that you have had many complaints and that you have directed the upstairs tenants to call the police whenever there is a disturbance in order to collect enough proof to evict. Tell them that, too.

You just need to be clear on what is expected, what you plan to do, and then follow through with your warnings. The more you bother them, the more stressed out they will become, and the more likely they are to find elsewhere to live.

You need to make them VERY clear who runs the show!!!!!

In two cases I`ve had, by being firm, I`ve had the tenants find elsewhere to live. In another case the tenant didn`t want to move and now always pays his rent on time, in fact early, and never disturbs the upstairs tenants. A complete turn around, one that I thought was competely unlikely, if not next to impossible.
 
QUOTE (RebeccaBryan @ Oct 22 2008, 02:42 PM) I would make the upstairs tenants as uncomfortable as possible, sending them warning letters, 24 hour notices to view the property to check for damage, etc. I would be upfront with them and tell them that you have had many complaints and that you have directed the upstairs tenants to call the police whenever there is a disturbance in order to collect enough proof to evict. Tell them that, too.

You just need to be clear on what is expected, what you plan to do, and then follow through with your warnings. The more you bother them, the more stressed out they will become, and the more likely they are to find elsewhere to live.

You need to make them VERY clear who runs the show!!!!!

In two cases I`ve had, by being firm, I`ve had the tenants find elsewhere to live. In another case the tenant didn`t want to move and now always pays his rent on time, in fact early, and never disturbs the upstairs tenants. A complete turn around, one that I thought was competely unlikely, if not next to impossible.

That sounds like great advice. These bad tenants may be professionals though because we`ve learned that they`ve had previous experiences with the L &T board and seems to have a system worked out to get as much as they can.
 
In hindsight did your credit and background check show signs of them being professional tenants.
eg: multiple moves, short employment, complaints about landlords, eviction, low credit score, sketchy info, incorrect info etc.
 
QUOTE (invst4profit @ Oct 22 2008, 04:42 PM) In hindsight did your credit and background check show signs of them being professional tenants.
eg: multiple moves, short employment, complaints about landlords, eviction, low credit score, sketchy info, incorrect info etc.

My mistake was that I did not do a credit check on the woman because she claimed she was a student, and the credit check on her "husband" had no record. Husband had a steady job according to applic. but I did not phone employer to confirm. She told me they don`t have any credit cards, and didn`t owe any money.

Yes, multiple moves, 6 months at 3 dif. places prior to ours. When questioned, she had valid sounding reasons for each move. I erred in not phoning the one landlord, and for the 2nd landlord no phone number was given, and the 3rd (current at that time) was a relative. She lied about various things on the application form and during the viewing process which we found out about after.

In hindsight, there were signs. We learned a lot, and unfortunately have a lot more to learn regarding how to get rid of a bad tenant once they are in.
 
The previous advice to buy out their lease is a good one. If you do proper tenant screening, you will not "have a long line of bad tenants waiting in line to rent". Buying out leases occurs fairly frequently, and is a great tool to get rid of lousy tenants. It probably does not need saying; but, always check your prospective tenants` history... especially the 2nd or 3rd last landlord. The current landlord may be anxious to get rid of the problem and give you a decent, but false, report.

What does your lease say about "being good neighbours"? If it says they must live in harmony with their neighbours then you may have grounds for eviction. Write your warning letters. Establish your provable track record. Give them numerous 24 hour notices for inspection. Become the pain in the ass they don`t want.

This question is for someone with more Ontario Tenant/Landlord knowledge than me. Does Ontario allow creation of rules after a lease is signed? If the answer to that is, "Yes.", then impose rules to help the situation. Fine the tenant for breaking the rules. Make life unpleasant for them.

Keep the lower tenant advised on what you are doing. If they feel you are working to make things better for them, they will be less likely to move when the lease comes up for renewal.
 
QUOTE (goodplanning @ Oct 22 2008, 10:35 AM) Hello all,
I am located in GTA, Ontario, and have been reading the REIN forums for the last few months and finally decided to join.

We are new to RE investing and have come across a problem that we need guidance to. In a duplex, the tenants in the 2nd floor apt. is fighting and making lots of noise by shouting, swearing and slamming of doors etc. which is really disturbing the tenants in the first floor apt. This was occasional in the beginning, but apparently has become almost daily. On top of that, the tenant above has been knocking on the door of the tenant below, to ask to "borrow" things like food, toilet paper, etc. The tenant above, are also late paying their rent and we`ve had one L & T board hearing already. They can not be evicted since they`ve paid within the dates allowed, though always on the very last day. Both sets of tenants moved in this past June (above) and July(below), and problems with the tenants above started after 1 month. Tenants above, is like your nightmare tenants, they`ve lied, been late with the rent after the first month, threatened to damage our property, and to waste water and heat by leaving the taps running and windows open.

Has anyone had experience with filing an application for Notice to Terminate a Tenancy Early (N5) because tenant "substantially interfered with the reasonable enjoyment of the residential complex of another tenant"? The tenants in apartment below have brought the problems to our attention since the end of August, but they are afraid to confront the tenants above because of fear of retailiation,they are great tenants and we don`t want to lose them.
Because we don`t live on-site, the tenants below have agreed to document the events for us to use in the notice to terminate.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. If anyone has used a paralegal in Barrie, with success, please let me know also. Thank you.

Contact April Stewart ("The Terminator") whom totally works on the Landlord`s behalf and is a paralegal. Her number is: 705-812-2267
I and other colleagues recommend her all the time to our clients. She`s phenomenal. Very experienced.
 
QUOTE (ShannonMurree @ Oct 31 2008, 12:13 AM) Contact April Stewart ("The Terminator") whom totally works on the Landlord`s behalf and is a paralegal. Her number is: 705-812-2267
I and other colleagues recommend her all the time to our clients. She`s phenomenal. Very experienced.

Shannon,
Thank you for the contact name. Much appreciated!
 
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