Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!

Which of the following two investment strategies is better..

Nir

0
REIN Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
2,880
Hi Everyone,

Which of the following two investment strategies is expected to achieve earlier retirement for the investor:

1. Purchase one apartments building for 1 Million Dollars (say with 20 units, 1 or 2 bedrooms each)

OR:

2. For the same price ($1,000,000) purchase as many triplexes and duplexes as you can (say 3 triplexes and 3 duplexes, 15 units in total)

For simplicity, please assume the properties are located in the same neighborhood and in an area where real estate prices are still very low (i.e. Brantford, Ontario).

Which of the two strategies is expected to generate higher cash flow? Same question regarding appreciation(?)

THANKS,
Neil
 
What is better: a vacation in Hawaii, in Europe or in Florida ? Not so easy an answer. Same here .. many options .. all have their pro`s and con`s:

The apartment building will likely yield better cash-flow if managed well and if purchased at the right price and if not too much deferred maintence and if utilities are not going through the roof, but equity upside is limited to rent growth (which is capped in Ontario due to rent control) .. so likely LESS equity upside than properties with "more land" !

The duplexes and triplexes are likely much more expensive per door (more land/door .. more roof space/door, more windows .. !) with slightly higher rents. Look for some with utilities ALL paid by tenants (water, gas, electricity) ! You will have likely have less cash-flow but MORE equity upside, ESPECIALLY if they could be sold individually.

a 3rd option is to buy townhouses as you can sell them off easier individually.

a 4th option is to invest with others as a JV.

a 5th option is to buy real estate that is already a security, i.e. in the stock market (REITs or ordinary stocks) .. there are some decent deals out there right now !
 
Hello Thomas,

Thank you for the interesting and quick response,

Are you sure within Ontario (where there is rent control) the more units there are in the building, the lower the expected appreciation is? I thought appreciation depends mainly on location not property type(?)

In other words, are you saying that the expected appreciation of a $500,000 6-plex for example is lower than the extended appreciation of two duplexes with the same extended market value of $500,000 ($250k each) and their total expected appreciation is lower than that of say 3 single family homes worth $500,000 as well?

Again, assuming all properties are within the same neighborhood.

I`m just not sure analyzing historical prices by property type, can justify that statement(?)

Regards,
Neil
 
QUOTE (investmart @ Mar 28 2008, 07:54 PM) ...

I`m just not sure analyzing historical prices by property type, can justify that statement(?)


yes I am saying EXACTLY that !

What goes UP in value is
a ) income / rent
b ) LAND

what goes DOWN in value is the physical asset / building.

So, there more land / unit the more upside .. whereas in a PURE rental property the ONLY valuation is the income it can generate !

The value of teh income producing asset then is a function is a multiple of the income stream, LIKE THE STOCK MARKET, and that multiplier is going down right now (from a 5% CAP or 20 multiplier or P/E ratio to perhaps a 7% CAP or 14 multiplier) !!

In a house, and likely a duplex and triplex or townhouses you have: A CHANGE OF USE .. i.e. NOT a rental property only but also a home which people can buy .. i.e. a different asset class !!

So a home with land is NOT a function of the rental income it can provide but mainly a supply and demand issue.

Of course, demand from tenants or demand for an asset (say on a lake or golf course or with a view) is relevant .. and thus location is relevant and has impact, obviously.

But, an income property and a house: TWO distinct asset classes .. with distinct valuations !
 
Great input Thomas!

The difference between a house and income property is clear then.

However, the "land per unit" theory does not explain why 2 triplexes located in the same neighborhood and generating the same rent, usually sell for the same price (or very similar) even if one is sitting on a lot 30% larger than the other.

Therefore, because land size has minimal effect, I`m assuming duplexes, triplexes and 20-plexes all behave almost as PURE rental property when assuming the units can not be sold individually.

This brings me to my initial question trying to compare between a triplex and a 20-plex.

Aren`t the CAP Rates of a triplex and 20-plex expected to be the same in the same location assuming the units can not be sold individually? Is there an additional risk with a 20-plex that increases its CAP Rate compared to a triplex or vice versa?

I`m trying to understand the different expectations investors have when purchasing a triplex compared to a 20-plex in terms of CAP Rate and annual rent to purchase price ratio(?)

(For example a triplex I know was recently purchased, generates 16% annual rent to purchase price ratio and 7.5% CAP RATE)

Thanks & Regards,
Neil
 
QUOTE I`m trying to understand the different expectations investors have when purchasing a triplex compared to a 20-plex in terms of CAP Rate and annual rent to purchase price ratio(?)

Hi Neil,

depending on where you are buying, it is possible that a triplex could potentially be owner/occupied. I see it alot in Toronto right now, many people need the income from additional suites to carry their costs, it`s the only way they can afford to buy a home in certain neighbourhoods. Many multi units are now selling for more than what the identical single family would fetch because of the appeal of the extra income it generates. I saw a 4 plex go $130,000 over asking last summer, the final selling price put it at a cap rate of under 4%. The sale definitely wasn`t income generated, the purchaser currently lived on that street and didn`t want to move from the neighbourhood, it was an emotional purchase not a financial one. I`m not saying that all duplex, triplex and 4 plex purchases are subject to emotional purchasing or going to be owner occupied, but the possibility exists, changing the expectation of the purchase where the purchase of a 20 plex is more than likely a purely financial purchase.

Terri
 
in general, the more units the lower the price per unit, as it has fewer "common" elements per unit, such as: roof, land, boiler, front entrance .. i.e. a roof on a triplex is not 1/7 of a roof on a 20-plex. i.e. less roof cost per unit in a 20 suiter. Ditto for a common boiler or a common entrance way or land underneath the property.

IF indeed you can get a triplex for the same price per unit (with more land even !!) as a 20-plex I`d buy the triplex .. or better: 6 or 7 of them .. as you can always sell ONE triplex and keep 5 .. whereas with a buidling you can sell the whole buidling or none.

The other issue mentioned by the other writers is a CONDO CONVERSION i.e. change from one title to 3 (or 20). This could generate much add`l equity in the right market, with the right suite mix and the right mortgage. So, certainly you want to look into the possibility of condo conversion, which is "income" i.e. gain over and above the rental income down the road.
 
Thank you Terri and Thomas, I find it a very interesting discussion as I believe it`s a relevant topic for any potential investor today.

What about one of the most important numbers: the CAP Rate. What CAP Rate would you expect if you considered purchasing a 20-plex in Barrie or Orillia? Same question regarding a triplex there(?)

You touched that in your examples (Terri provided a unique example of a 4-plex at 4% CAP, Thomas mentioned an increase from 5% CAP to 7% CAP for income properties). Was just wondering if you guys can be a little more specific in comparing the two property types: what is your estimated average triplex CAP and what is your estimated average 20-plex CAP in cities like Barry or Orillia? 5%, 7%, 10%..?

Regards,
Neil
 
QUOTE (investmart @ Mar 30 2008, 06:32 PM) Thank you Terri and Thomas, I find it a very interesting discussion as I believe it`s a relevant topic for any potential investor today.

What about one of the most important numbers: the CAP Rate. What CAP Rate would you expect if you considered purchasing a 20-plex in Barrie or Orillia? Same question regarding a triplex there(?)

You touched that in your examples (Terri provided a unique example of a 4-plex at 4% CAP, Thomas mentioned an increase from 5% CAP to 7% CAP for income properties). Was just wondering if you guys can be a little more specific in comparing the two property types: what is your estimated average triplex CAP and what is your estimated average 20-plex CAP in cities like Barry or Orillia? 5%, 7%, 10%..?

Regards,
Neil
 
hi Neil,

what I was trying to point out in the example that I gave of the 4 plex that capped less than 4%, was that with the smaller unit buildings you don`t always know the reason behind the purchase. In that particular case I knew the back story, I knew that it was to be owner occupied and that it sold for $50,000 over the next highest offer, which may or may not have been owner occupied as well, it was $75,000 over what I was willing to pay. The smaller unit buildings can be emotional purchases, so just because that one capped at 3.5% doesn`t mean that you if you buy the one next door and it caps at 4%, that you are getting a good deal. You need to do your due diligence. Smaller unit buildings might have a smaller cash flow, but increase in value at a higher rate, be easier to sell. There are a lot of other factors to consider.

I can`t help you with the cap rate of properties in Orillia, but having had a few appraisals done recently, I am learning that it`s very difficult to find true and accurate cap rates of the smaller 2-4 unit properties. Talking to one of the appraisers I realized that he based his #`s on stated net income from the mls listing. He assumed that the stated net income included things like property management, vacancy and repair and used that to determine cap rates for the area, but as it turns out I had put in offers on at least 3 of the comparable properties that he was using and having looked at the expense statements provided by the owners knew for a fact that in all 3 cases the stated net income did not include vacancy, repair or property management, the appraiser on the other hand did not have access to this information and was just going on an assumption, therefore, his cap rates were incorrect. I think that it`s probably more difficult to get accurate cap rate information on buildings that size as opposed to the larger unit building where any potential purchaser will want to scrutinize all the #s very thoroughly before putting in an offer.

The other thing you need to be wary of with stated cap rate is deferred maintenance, the first year or so can show a negative cash flow if the property is older and needs maintenance.

I know this doesn`t help much because what you really want to hear is some magic # where anything above it is good and anything below it is bad, but there is so much else to take into consideration that no one magic # really exists. Instead concentrate on other questions like is this a short or long term hold, what are your expectations of cash flow and/or equity appreciation. Basically it seems that anything with a good cash flow doesn`t have the highest appreciation and properties that are increasing in value the most don`t have great cash flow so you need to find a balance that works for you.

Sorry I can`t be of more help,

Terri
 
Thanks Terri, Great input!

Bottom line, my understanding from you and Thomas is a 20-plex is expected to generate better cash flow (%) than a triplex as long as it is managed well and meets a few other conditions.. plus, it`s expected to have lower appreciation (on average of course, there are always exceptions)

Cheers,
Neil
 
Back
Top Bottom