Private Purchase/Sale

[GaryMcGowan]

For Private Sale Offers I use the forms and Purchase Agreements from the following website.
http://www.formpaper.com/QuickOffer.html

They have offers for Realtors and Private Sales for Ontario.
The forms also come loaded with clauses, conditions and you can create your own. It is drag and drop. Very user friendly.

 

[RedlineBrett]

I`d ask your lawyer to send you a contract you can use. See what, if anything, they want to charge you for it. Tell them you are ok to pay for a couple hours of a lawyer`s time to review your contract after you`ve had it signed by the other party.

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE (Berubeland @ Dec 6 2010, 07:50 AM) I am absolutely disgusted with Mike`s fear mongering. It`s sour grapes at its finest. You act like real estate agents are some kind of legal experts instead of people who have taken a minimal amount of correspondence courses.
Truth is that every single deal is overseen by a lawyer for a good reason. Furthermore if it weren`t for cut and paste technology you`d be even further up the creek.

The Agreement of Purchase and Sale is a simple fill in the blank form. It can be purchased at Staples for 10$ in disk form.

Get over yourself, this is like me insisting that every owner should hire a property manager or someone to rent out their place. I provide a good service for those who choose to use them. I am not essential and neither are you. People who don`t use my services save money and so do people who don`t use your service. It`s not rocket science.

Ridiculous

Lots of venom and poor advice in this post... Investors that want to enter into a contract without representation would do well to remember the following:

- Lawyers usually only see deals after all conditions are removed and then their primary purpose is to convey mortgage funds and clear leins off title and execute any special terms mutually agreed upon by buyer and seller. They are NOT overseeing anything! They CAN NOT offer advice at this stage, only go through the motions negotiated between buyer and seller. If you want your lawyer to be able to review a contract before it is 100% binding you have to write in the term and show it to them BEFORE waiving conditions. You screw something up and waive conditions your lawyer won`t be able to help you.

- As noted above many alternatives to real estate board produced forms are available but you are using them AT YOUR OWN RISK. You "fill in the blanks" AT YOUR OWN RISK! Sure it is easy to fill in those blanks but how confident are you in the fine print between the blanks and what it means for your position. Are you ready to put a $20,000 deposit at risk by using a form you bought online for $5 and have never used before? Or would you rather pay a few hundred bucks for a lawyer produced form or pay what your realtor wants to draft a contract for you using forms honed over decades of case law and industry practice. Up to you Mr. buyer / seller!

It`s like anything else in this business. If you are not an expert in a certain feild but you want expert advice well then you need to pay for it... And more often than not you get what you pay for!

 

[housingrental]

Good post Brett

 

[Mike Milovick]

QUOTE (Berubeland @ Dec 6 2010, 09:50 AM) I am absolutely disgusted with Mike`s fear mongering. It`s sour grapes at its finest. You act like real estate agents are some kind of legal experts instead of people who have taken a minimal amount of correspondence courses.
Truth is that every single deal is overseen by a lawyer for a good reason. Furthermore if it weren`t for cut and paste technology you`d be even further up the creek.

The Agreement of Purchase and Sale is a simple fill in the blank form. It can be purchased at Staples for 10$ in disk form.

Get over yourself, this is like me insisting that every owner should hire a property manager or someone to rent out their place. I provide a good service for those who choose to use them. I am not essential and neither are you. People who don`t use my services save money and so do people who don`t use your service. It`s not rocket science.

Ridiculous

I don`t fear monger. I don`t have sour grapes.

If you feel that your Staples form fits the bill for your real estate need in Canada, go for it. Note that there are significant differences between the Provinces. Also note that some boiler plate forms work better in other places like the United States. Also note that the community we are dealing with are REIN members - sophisticated investors - buying buildings in transactions that are more complicated than typical residential deal.

If you are going to use the OREA form, you will have to have a licensee. Note that OREA actually supports the form. I can`t say that I am familiar with the Staples form.

If a REIN member placed a post asking what was the best way to charge for key or damage deposit in Ontario - I would hope that you, as a property manager, would take the opportunity to point out that would he was doing was illegal. Even if you felt personally, that it was ok to do something illegal, I don`t think I would publically encourage other members to do same. Nor would I blast the provider of this information.

I guess thats the difference between being a real estate professional - and not. From my experience, if you seek short cuts in real estate, and operate in a non-ethical manner, they will catch up to you.

Mike

 

[RedlineBrett]

QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 9 2010, 11:48 AM) From my experience, if you seek short cuts in real estate, and operate in a non-ethical manner, they will catch up to you.


Good advice here.

 

[bizaro86]

QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 9 2010, 11:48 AM) ...he was doing was illegal.

Is using a blank OREA form without being an OREA licensee actually illegal though? I understand OREA believes it to be illegal, and will tell you so, but they`re not exactly a disinterested party.

I`d be interested in getting an authoritative answer to that, has that assertion ever been tried in court?

Michael

 

[Mike Milovick]

QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Dec 9 2010, 03:44 PM) Is using a blank OREA form without being an OREA licensee actually illegal though? I understand OREA believes it to be illegal, and will tell you so, but they`re not exactly a disinterested party.

I`d be interested in getting an authoritative answer to that, has that assertion ever been tried in court?

Michael


Hi Michael;

That`s an interesting thought. Why do you think OREA would place a copyright notice at the bottom of the form which specifically says who may use the form? I am not a lawyer, but I am going to suggest that the courts are full of copyright infringement cases. If the OREA forms are actully public domain, for use by the public, why would OREA bother to copyright the form?

Do you think a REIN member will be willing to provide an OREA form they used on a private transaction - not involving an OREA member? If a member wants to send me an example, I can confirm directly with OREA.

Mike

 

[bizaro86]

QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 10 2010, 02:58 PM) That`s an interesting thought. Why do you think OREA would place a copyright notice at the bottom of the form which specifically says who may use the form?

That`s an easy one. OREA would place a copywrite notice on their forums as a method of persuading people that using a Realtor is a necessity, which benefits their membership. Their motivation is quite clear.

Note that I`m not saying you can go around willy-nilly using the form, and I`m certainly not a lawyer. My point is, just because OREA says you can`t use the form doesn`t mean that`s necessarily true. It doesn`t mean it isn`t true either, though.

Obviously copywrite law exists, the question is whether a set of standard legal clauses can be protected by copywrite. And just because OREA says it can be, doesn`t make it so.

I`d be interested to see some caselaw demonstrating it either way.

Regards,

Michael

 

[bizaro86]

I read my post again, and thought I`d better add a few points.

1) I get value from my realtor, and will continue to use her services.

2) If I wasn`t going to do so, I`d get a form from my lawyer, since, even if it may not be illegal to use CREA board`s form, it`s certainly ethically dubious. It might be illegal, and it might not be, but just because someone tells you it is, doesn`t make it so. Even if they tell you in writing.

3) I`m not buying in Ontario, so the machinations of OREA don`t really matter to me.

My point was not that using their form is right, correct, or even necessarily legal. My point is that just because someone tells you something, even if that someone is RE board, that doesn`t necessarily make it a legal fact.

As examples, I`ve had people tell me rent-to-own is illegal, that there are no security deposits legally allowed in Alberta, and all sorts of other things that aren`t true. As investors its important to filter through the misinformation and bias out there and make a decision that works for you within the law.

Best regards,

Michael

 

[Mike Milovick]

QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Dec 9 2010, 03:44 PM) Is using a blank OREA form without being an OREA licensee actually illegal though? I understand OREA believes it to be illegal, and will tell you so, but they`re not exactly a disinterested party.

I`d be interested in getting an authoritative answer to that, has that assertion ever been tried in court?

Michael


Michael brings up a great point. Is using Don Campbell`s forms without permission actually illegal? Note that Don`s books, his resource material, his Gold Mine Score Card are copyrighted. Maybe Don could weigh in on the validity of his copyrights, whether or not they are enforceable, and why he chose to protect his ideas/forms through copyrght in the first place.

If Don has never been challenged in court on the validity of his copyrights, maybe you can freely steal his and even OREA`s work. You bring up a great point. Or maybe its just OK to steal from OREA?

 

[housingrental]

Unfortunately I`m continually amazed how some people seem fine with wondering if it is appropriate to commit an illegal acts or slandering others.

When information is presented to challenge their false belief`s you would think they would have the good sense to admit it, change there stance, or apologize. Also unfortunate when this does not happen.

 

[bizaro86]

QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Dec 11 2010, 12:57 PM)
Michael brings up a great point. Is using Don Campbell's forms without permission actually illegal? Note that Don's books, his resource material, his Gold Mine Score Card are copyrighted. Maybe Don could weigh in on the validity of his copyrights, whether or not they are enforceable, and why he chose to protect his ideas/forms through copyrght in the first place.



If Don has never been challenged in court on the validity of his copyrights, maybe you can freely steal his and even OREA's work. You bring up a great point. Or maybe its just OK to steal from OREA?






Legal forms are a separate part of the law. Books and resource materials are copywritable, and it would certainly be illegal to use them.



I'm not sure if legal forms are copywritable, but I'm interested in knowing the answer. Sarcasm is not necessary to your argument. I never said it was the right thing to do, but I still haven't seen anything demonstrating that legal forms fall under copywrite.



Regards,



Michael

 

[Rickson9]

That`s an interesting question. Can an individual copyright legal documents? I have no idea.

 

[Mike Milovick]

QUOTE (Rickson9 @ Dec 12 2010, 09:37 PM) That`s an interesting question. Can an individual copyright legal documents? I have no idea.


Here is a good response. Its from OREA legal. From a lawyer - not a realtor. Hopefully it suffices. If you want to interpret their response as "fear mongering or sour grapes", feel free.

"Thank you for your e-mail. OREA`s Standard Forms were developed for use and reproduction by OREA Members and its licensees.



OREA actively takes steps to protect its intellectual property (including the copyright in its Standard Forms) and takes infringement of its intellectual property rights seriously. If you have specific information regarding the misappropriation or infringement of OREA intellectual property (including the unauthorized use of OREA Standard

Forms) we invite you to forward this information to us for further investigation and review.



With regard to use of the OREA Standard forms by lawyers and other legal professionals, please note that OREA has entered into a licensing agreement with a company that licenses use of the forms to legal professionals. It could be that the use of the forms you have encountered is use which has been approved by OREA under license.



We would be happy to look into any specific situation further if you can provide us with further details."

 

[mike81]

ladies and gentleman... say hello to buzz killington.

 

[housingrental]

Hi mike81 - what issue do you take with the posts in this thread?

 

[mike81]

QUOTE (housingrental @ Dec 15 2010, 12:52 PM) Hi mike81 - what issue do you take with the posts in this thread?

Hello, no issues- just a comment on social behavior.
Also just like to add there was some good perspective from both sides. And Mike is right. Which he clearly needed to demonstrate.
Good day.

 

[housingrental]

Thanks Mike