Pulling my $$ out of Ontario Real Estate, Looking for a new Province to invest in re. rentals

[mrsean]

I have a bunch of homes and plexes throughout Ontario.

They all have good cash flow, are in good areas, etc.

However, the province is in a tail-spin.

Aggressive and threatening tenants.

People not being able to pay rent.

Others `using` the free legal aid system to create frivilous lawsuits.

Fake maintenance claims treated with utmost seriousness by the various bureaucrats happy to have a job.

A corrupt Landlord and Tenant Board, favouring tenants at all costs.

I do not see it getting any better.

As these investments are not my main source of income, and I do not have to live in Ontario, I am looking to get out of Ontario rentals.

However, I would like to continue to invest in real estate, and in Canada.

Anywhere that you know of personally offering a good ROI, plus decent landlord/tenant legislation?

Thank you.

 

[MonteDobson]

QUOTE (mrsean @ Jul 13 2009, 12:51 AM) Anywhere that you know of personally offering a good ROI, plus decent landlord/tenant legislation?

Why not look into SK or AB? Both are resource rich provinces with bright futures ahead when the economy rebounds. Landlord/tenant legislation is better than any other areas in Canada and right now there are some excellent buying opportunities that offer great cashflow and potential for a good ROI over the next 5-7 years.

Feel free to contact me directly to chat further!

 

[RedlineBrett]

I imagine it will be tough to find non-biased opinions on local markets here and I would be no exception

If you are going to make the switch I think you owe it to yourself to research - at a minimum - the major centers in each province. I would start with Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton and Regina and see where you set the bar. REIN members are very good at sharing their experiences so I would find one in each city with a handful of properties and then pick their brains a bit.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

QUOTE (C2Ventures @ Jul 13 2009, 08:54 AM) Why not look into SK or AB? Both are resource rich provinces with bright futures ahead when the economy rebounds. Landlord/tenant legislation is better than any other areas in Canada and right now there are some excellent buying opportunities that offer great cashflow and potential for a good ROI over the next 5-7 years.


Indeed ... SK is the best place to invest these days, followed by AB, then BC that also has some decent pockets like Vancouver Island or Lower Mainland ..

Also to consider is Texas .. the US version of Alberta .. but the risk is higher due to US $ exchange rate and weaker (and more expensive) mortgage environment .. but you can buy homes below $100,000 and residential assets with 10% CAP rates !

 

[DaveAlbano]

Hi Sean,

I myself am from Ontario, have properties there, but have since moved to Calgary. I agree with your assessment of the Ontario economy and prohibitive landlording legislation. I moved to Alberta in large part because of the real estate opportunities here, which are still incredible.

I too will be selling my properties in Ontario and re-investing them in Calgary specifically. After moving here 2yrs ago, I can`t believe the sustained growth and new opportunities, especially in this economy. Everything is on sale and I can tell you specifically where I prefer to invest in the city. For me, its the best place around.

Give me a shout or email me with any questions you have, as I`d be happy to help. I`d be glad to share the experience I have specific to your situation.

 

[ChrisDavies]

Plus one for Alberta. I`ve got a couple properties in Edmonton that I`d be willing to assign.

 

[greg12]

QUOTE (ChrisDavies @ Jul 13 2009, 12:01 PM) Plus one for Alberta. I`ve got a couple properties in Edmonton that I`d be willing to assign.

Nice one Chris!

Me too! Mine has an assumable mortgage with a killer low rate.

My two cents Sean is that the landlording system you follow is just as important as the market you choose. There is no guarantee that the same issues will not reoccur in the west if the same tenant screening, property choice etc methods are reproduced when you move.

 

[Nir]

wow, scary news for people investing in Ontario! so far all my tenants have been good tenants, nice people. so.. are most tenants in Ontario bad from your experience or only like 10% that ruined your motivation to continue investing in Ontario? is it certain cities only or all of Ontario? THANKS.

 

[JoefromTO]

I don`t agree that the Residential tenancy act favours tenants. The Board (formally known as the Tribunal) choses to mediate issues between tenants and landlords before proceeding with evictions, for issues that are not illegal in nature.

My philosophy is that you don`t try and evict your children when they are bad, you speak to them and remind them of the rules and how to behave, etc...same goes for tenants. The business requires tenants to succeed and there are good and bad tenants everywhere.

So what I`m getting at is, if you use the tenancy act properly, give notices as issues arise, chose a mediation approach instead of eviction, you will be in a greater position of control.

I think that people lack people skills and normally cause problems for themselves. When someone has a complaint, some people have a hard time knowing how to deal with the issue. Some people take it personally and react...which leads to problems. Not every person is cut out for customer service in a department store...handling tenants and their issues is no different.

Beleive me, there are times when I want to tell them off, but I realize that the tone on the phone is not intended to be angry with me. Rather they are frustrated with something in or at the apartment. Toilet doesn`t flush(maintenance), furnace stoped working(maintenance), fridge isn`t cold(maintenance or replace), noise level from other tenant(phone conversation with both parties...serve appropriate notice if necessary), light bulb burnt out and requires replacing (Iv`e never got one of those calls...), tenant doesn`t pay rent (serve appropriate notice, vacancy rate factored in prior to purchase, sleep at night fund established...tenants usually pay but the notice serves as the appropriate paperwork necessary for the Board to see that you tried to mediate...which they like).

Since your post seems to be about tenant issues rather than finding good cashflowing properties then I suspect that is your main reason for considering to move. I wouldn`t say the grass is greener tenant wise.

If your screening process is flawled, then you will still run into the same issues no matter where you invest.

I have had some issues with my own tenants in the past and when I`m honest with myself, I realize that I was resonsible for my own headaches by simple not chosing the right tenants. I have learned alot from those mistakes and have improved my screening process. I still make the odd mistake here and there, but I have also learned how to speak to tenants and for the most part, its not been an issue.

I have thought about relocating as well, but for different reasons. However, my entire family is in Ontario...moving is not an option for me that I would be happy with in the short term and if I want to keep my wife happy...then it would not make me happy in the long term either...she too has all her family in Ontario.

Your circumstances might be different.

What kind of properties do you own and in what areas?

 

[housingrental]

investmart - My experience has been most are good tenants. A few have life events that they don`t anticipate and they just can`t afford the place from there.. some aren`t the best on occasion... I`d say the biggest issue, assuming your screening well, is the quality of the property your renting.. if your place is small, wonky, dated, and shows poor it can be hard to find quality tenants. So landlord with a fourplex with four 1 bedroom and bachelor apartments in older converted house likely has more pain than landlord with newer condo loft

 

[GaryMcGowan]

QUOTE (housingrental @ Jul 14 2009, 09:19 AM) investmart - My experience has been most are good tenants. A few have life events that they don`t anticipate and they just can`t afford the place from there.. some aren`t the best on occasion... I`d say the biggest issue, assuming your screening well, is the quality of the property your renting.. if your place is small, wonky, dated, and shows poor it can be hard to find quality tenants. So landlord with a fourplex with four 1 bedroom and bachelor apartments in older converted house likely has more pain than landlord with newer condo loft


Good comments Adam,

Investing in Ontario with the LTB may be a little more difficult.
But statements like this, is ones opportunity. We live and invest in Ontario and are happy with our results thus far.

 

[invst4profit]

The major problem with the Ontario system is it is too slow and does favour giving bad tenants multiple chances to improve at the expense of the LL.
Most evictions take a minimum 3 months and when a tenant stops paying rent and/or damages a unit a LLs only recourse to recoup losses is civil action.

Low life legal aid trolls, government sponsored tenant advocacy groups and professional tenants make the system impossible for LL to not lose money when they do encounter a problem tenant.
That combined with no damage deposits, no control over pets and no control over who moves into your unit after you have a renter are only a few of the nightmares of the Ontario RTA.

No system is a problem if all your tenants are good.
Yes screening is the key. The problem is in Ontario if a tenant does go bad LLs hands are tied in trying to evict and recoup there losses.

The Ontario RTA and LTB definitely do favour tenants at the expense of LLs.

 

[Mitch Collins]

mrsean;

Contact me via a PM and I can give you information about opportunities in our location.

Regards;

 

[Nir]

Thanks Adam and Gary. Joe from Toronto summarized it well - more than location, being a landlord is just not for everyone. cheers.

 

[mrsean]

QUOTE (investmart @ Jul 14 2009, 07:26 PM) Joe from Toronto summarized it well - more than location, being a landlord is just not for everyone. cheers.What a ridiculous comment.

I own successful rental property in several different countries.

Furthermore, I own many properties in Ontario that have a good ROI.

I run the business in Ontario as I do my other properties. Careful screening, customised leases, professional management, and I know the Ontario Act by heart and have hired top-notch pros to help in certain cases over the years. It is my level of knowledge that is the the problem. It is a disaster waiting to happen.

Sophisticated investors know the legal, political, and economic climate their money is invested in.

To put it into perspective, I also own a large sailboat and have sailed all over the world. Some areas now are filled with pirates. They aren`t going to give you problems each time you sail by, but they are there and eventually something bad could happen due to the situation and the law of the sea in that particular area. Since 2003, and especially with the new Act in 2007, those pirates are all over Ontario. They are wearing shirts with Trilliums on them. With pictures of Daulton McGuinty and Jim Watson on the back.

But I do not want this thread to debate what is happening in Ontario (which invest4profit began explaining well...)

It`s my money, and as part of my desire to balance my portfolio I put money into Canadian real estate. I`m happy with the Canadian part (even though I am not based in Canada) and am happy to keep the money in real estate/rentals.

The problem is Ontario. I want OUT.

I have many terrific mortgages that I would like to port out to other properties, while I sell my Ontario properties privately.

I would like a fair Tenant Act that is not open to abuse, a place that could see some appreciation, and have a good tenant base.

Thank you for those who have replied about this so far.

I would like to find a place, likely in the West, where there are some fair returns and a decent business investment opportunity is available.

I would be happy to work with someone on this forum and visit various towns/cities in August.

With respect,

Mrsean

Oh, by the way: http://newsdurhamregion.com/news/clarington/article/123419

 

[mrsean]

QUOTE (MitchCollins @ Jul 14 2009, 02:18 PM) mrsean;

Contact me for information on cash flow properties in Northeastern BC. Cities like Fort St. John and Dawson Creek are unique markets with strong cash flow and excellent appreciation potential. I`ve got teams set up in both towns to assist people in purchasing their cash flowing assets in this dynamic market.

Warm Regards;
Mitch is your site up and running?

I plan to be in BC in August. Very interested in meeting REIN people along the way.

I`m very serious in making a move out of Ontario, fast.

 

[trev]

All my properties are currently in Ontario, and while I agree that the rules seriously favour tenants, I also believe that if you have nothing but trouble with the system, perhaps you`re getting the wrong people.
I had many of the same problems in my pre-REIN days, actually tried to unload what I had and didn`t even think about more r/e for several years.
Using what I`ve learned since REIN, I`ve had nothing but success with tenants, even in Ontario

The bad tenants are out there, but they`re EVERYWHERE, even in ALBERTA and SK. Screening is the key.
Every area has good and bad conditions and legislation

For example, in the past few months I read a few accounts in this forum of tenants in Alberta demanding $100 - $200 / month less in rent or they were leaving because they could get it at that price somewhere else. Haven`t heard of that in Ontario. Could be the upside of rent control. The rent pendulam can`t swing out of control going up, so it doesn`t come back the other way and create neg. c/f.

Values don`t go up 30-40% / year, so no large corrections.

Incomes are lower, keeps people renting

Terrible landlord tenant law, less people try their hand at landlording, maybe more willing to JV and not deal with it

Job losses in the short term - Buy opportunities

In fact, I invest primarily in Oshawa, 1 minute from the GM plant- my last 2 purchases were motivated vendors due to their reliance on manufacturing.
And I`ve lost no tenants due to the apparent manufacturing melt down. Conveniently, any applications I received from people working in that sector were not accepted (funny how that happened "we`ve given the unit to someone else")

In fact, if we look at legislation alone, especially taxes, we should get out of Canada altogether.

Just my thoughts

 

[Nicola]

QUOTE (trev @ Jul 18 2009, 10:44 AM) The bad tenants are out there, but they`re EVERYWHERE, even in ALBERTA and SK. Screening is the key.
Every area has good and bad conditions and legislation

Yes, the worst tenants (by far) I`ve had have been in Alberta.

 

[moneyismyservant]

I was raised in BC, lived as a renter in Calgary for 8 yrs...then moved to Halifax, bought a 4 bdrm house on a lake for what it would cost for a bachelor apt in Calgary. Halifax has a steady increase of 4%-16% annually. Because there is no boom happeing here, there is no crash. You know what ppl here are known for across Canada....they are so friendly and kind, it`s true!

I find Halifax gets overlooked esp. when it comes to investing in realestate.

Moncton NB is a great place to purchase good properties. I call moncton a "retail" city as most that live their work in retail and rent.

 

[NorthernAlex]

If you have property in Northern Ontario, let me know!