Any thoughts on recent Calgary Basement fire issue? Landlord got charged yesterday. What else we should all be aware of other than Smoke Detector inspection every few months? What about if tenant disconnects this smoke alarm right after inspection is done? Are we still liable?
Basement Fire and Landlord charges
- Thread starter dhi7919
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QUOTE (dhi7919 @ Feb 5 2009, 11:41 AM) Any thoughts on recent Calgary Basement fire issue? Landlord got charged yesterday. What else we should all be aware of other than Smoke Detector inspection every few months? What about if tenant disconnects this smoke alarm right after inspection is done? Are we still liable?
Don`t rent or buy any rental property that is not legal.
Don`t rent or buy any rental property that is not legal.
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We check to make sure the smoke detector is working and show the tenant that it works at the time we do the walk through inspection. We use the inspection forms from the calary appartment assoc. In that form there is a place to check off that the smoke detector is working and that it is the tenants responsibility to check monthly. There is a place for the tenant to sign accepting the responsibility.
I think this tragic fire is a wake up call for everyone to be more diligent in making certain that we are providing proper safety
I think this tragic fire is a wake up call for everyone to be more diligent in making certain that we are providing proper safety
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Here is an interesting story about a phone call I received a few days ago.
I received a call from an elderly gentalman asking if I was the owner of a house at a certain address. He tracked me down by talking with the tenants and he was concerned about the windows in the basement suit.Apparently many years ago he had secred the windows closed for security reasons and at time that he sold the home no one was living in the basement . Leo said he was not well at time and had instructed someone to unsecure the windows before he transfered the home to the new owners. Leo was concerned and insisted that he needed to make sure the windows were ok. Leo met me at the property we had a look at the windows everything was fine. I think Leo will sleep better now.
The couple things that came to light for me is that.When I took over the property it was renovated the owner lived upstairs and I assumed the lower tenant. I never checked the smoke detector until recently when I re-rented the lower unit and did my usual walkthrough. The smoke detector was not working , the battery was missing and it was old. I through it out and replaced it with a new one.I never checked to make sure that the windows where in proper working order. I never even thought to check, I guess a person just assumes the windows would be good or someone would complain or mention it.We all know the story about ASS-U-ME. From now on I will be checking these things and more on every property that we take over.
I have found lots of smoke detectors with the batteries missing when I am re-renting property.I always fix the problem and instruct the new tenant to not just take the battery out when it starts to beep. Replace it, there cheep.
I received a call from an elderly gentalman asking if I was the owner of a house at a certain address. He tracked me down by talking with the tenants and he was concerned about the windows in the basement suit.Apparently many years ago he had secred the windows closed for security reasons and at time that he sold the home no one was living in the basement . Leo said he was not well at time and had instructed someone to unsecure the windows before he transfered the home to the new owners. Leo was concerned and insisted that he needed to make sure the windows were ok. Leo met me at the property we had a look at the windows everything was fine. I think Leo will sleep better now.
The couple things that came to light for me is that.When I took over the property it was renovated the owner lived upstairs and I assumed the lower tenant. I never checked the smoke detector until recently when I re-rented the lower unit and did my usual walkthrough. The smoke detector was not working , the battery was missing and it was old. I through it out and replaced it with a new one.I never checked to make sure that the windows where in proper working order. I never even thought to check, I guess a person just assumes the windows would be good or someone would complain or mention it.We all know the story about ASS-U-ME. From now on I will be checking these things and more on every property that we take over.
I have found lots of smoke detectors with the batteries missing when I am re-renting property.I always fix the problem and instruct the new tenant to not just take the battery out when it starts to beep. Replace it, there cheep.
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QUOTE (RogerPanchuk @ Feb 5 2009, 09:06 PM) Here is an interesting story about a phone call I received a few days ago.
I received a call from an elderly gentalman asking if I was the owner of a house at a certain address. He tracked me down by talking with the tenants and he was concerned about the windows in the basement suit.Apparently many years ago he had secred the windows closed for security reasons and at time that he sold the home no one was living in the basement . Leo said he was not well at time and had instructed someone to unsecure the windows before he transfered the home to the new owners. Leo was concerned and insisted that he needed to make sure the windows were ok. Leo met me at the property we had a look at the windows everything was fine. I think Leo will sleep better now.
The couple things that came to light for me is that.When I took over the property it was renovated the owner lived upstairs and I assumed the lower tenant. I never checked the smoke detector until recently when I re-rented the lower unit and did my usual walkthrough. The smoke detector was not working , the battery was missing and it was old. I through it out and replaced it with a new one.I never checked to make sure that the windows where in proper working order. I never even thought to check, I guess a person just assumes the windows would be good or someone would complain or mention it.We all know the story about ASS-U-ME. From now on I will be checking these things and more on every property that we take over.
I have found lots of smoke detectors with the batteries missing when I am re-renting property.I always fix the problem and instruct the new tenant to not just take the battery out when it starts to beep. Replace it, there cheep.
Roger, toss all those battery operated smoke detectors and replace with interconnected hard-wired detectors; ie the main floor detector is inter-connected with the one in the basement suite. This is part of the Safety Code now and absolutely essential for tenant safety. Batteries can die, tenant can remove the battery to silence a false alarm caused by a smoke from cooking a dinner gone bad, or to replace because of a dead battery and just forgot...
I received a call from an elderly gentalman asking if I was the owner of a house at a certain address. He tracked me down by talking with the tenants and he was concerned about the windows in the basement suit.Apparently many years ago he had secred the windows closed for security reasons and at time that he sold the home no one was living in the basement . Leo said he was not well at time and had instructed someone to unsecure the windows before he transfered the home to the new owners. Leo was concerned and insisted that he needed to make sure the windows were ok. Leo met me at the property we had a look at the windows everything was fine. I think Leo will sleep better now.
The couple things that came to light for me is that.When I took over the property it was renovated the owner lived upstairs and I assumed the lower tenant. I never checked the smoke detector until recently when I re-rented the lower unit and did my usual walkthrough. The smoke detector was not working , the battery was missing and it was old. I through it out and replaced it with a new one.I never checked to make sure that the windows where in proper working order. I never even thought to check, I guess a person just assumes the windows would be good or someone would complain or mention it.We all know the story about ASS-U-ME. From now on I will be checking these things and more on every property that we take over.
I have found lots of smoke detectors with the batteries missing when I am re-renting property.I always fix the problem and instruct the new tenant to not just take the battery out when it starts to beep. Replace it, there cheep.
Roger, toss all those battery operated smoke detectors and replace with interconnected hard-wired detectors; ie the main floor detector is inter-connected with the one in the basement suite. This is part of the Safety Code now and absolutely essential for tenant safety. Batteries can die, tenant can remove the battery to silence a false alarm caused by a smoke from cooking a dinner gone bad, or to replace because of a dead battery and just forgot...
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Another issue to be aware of is that if renting to families with older/tenage kids batteries often disappear from smoke detectors. They use them to power there "toys".
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QUOTE (mcgregok @ Feb 5 2009, 10:17 PM) Don`t rent or buy any rental property that is not legal.
100%. Never, ever buy anything that is not legal or does not have the prossibility of being legalized. The reason why there are restrictions in place is typically to safeguard tenants AND landlords. You WANT City involvement in your landlording operation to ensure you are compliant with building and/or fire safety requirements.
I would love to know what level of interest this landlord`s insurance company is involved in on this one.
I am always disturbed by investors that seek out:
1. non-legal set ups (i.e. dupex with unrecognized third unit in basement);
2. property being used as student housing (lodging houses) in contravention to City By-laws;
3. investors that believe they are covered because they have taken out a residential insurance policy (as opposed to a rental insurance policy).
Last thing I would ever want to see if someone`s net worth go up in smoke - literally - due to a tenant injury or fatality - and then do jail time on top of that.
Buy legal.
Mike
100%. Never, ever buy anything that is not legal or does not have the prossibility of being legalized. The reason why there are restrictions in place is typically to safeguard tenants AND landlords. You WANT City involvement in your landlording operation to ensure you are compliant with building and/or fire safety requirements.
I would love to know what level of interest this landlord`s insurance company is involved in on this one.
I am always disturbed by investors that seek out:
1. non-legal set ups (i.e. dupex with unrecognized third unit in basement);
2. property being used as student housing (lodging houses) in contravention to City By-laws;
3. investors that believe they are covered because they have taken out a residential insurance policy (as opposed to a rental insurance policy).
Last thing I would ever want to see if someone`s net worth go up in smoke - literally - due to a tenant injury or fatality - and then do jail time on top of that.
Buy legal.
Mike
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QUOTE (MikeMilovick @ Feb 7 2009, 07:47 AM) Last thing I would ever want to see if someone`s net worth go up in smoke - literally - due to a tenant injury or fatality - and then do jail time on top of that.
Buy legal.
Mike
Nice to see my realtor is on the same page as me.
If it cashflows as a legal unit in a top 10 town, thats a good first step!
Buy legal.
Mike
Nice to see my realtor is on the same page as me.
If it cashflows as a legal unit in a top 10 town, thats a good first step!
QUOTE (GarthChapman @ Feb 5 2009, 11:23 PM) Roger, toss all those battery operated smoke detectors and replace with interconnected hard-wired detectors; ie the main floor detector is inter-connected with the one in the basement suite. This is part of the Safety Code now and absolutely essential for tenant safety. Batteries can die, tenant can remove the battery to silence a false alarm caused by a smoke from cooking a dinner gone bad, or to replace because of a dead battery and just forgot...
Garth just wondering do you need an electrician to install and approx. what is the cost? Thanks
Garth just wondering do you need an electrician to install and approx. what is the cost? Thanks
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How much does it cost?
It doesn`t matter, whatever it is, do it! Every single time! whatever the cost it`s nothing compared to the horrendous consequenses of non working, battery operated smoke detectors, in human life, as we`ve seen, as well as the financial cost to all involved(legal fees, fines, parents burying their kids...yuk).
The only question is, "Where can I find an electrician to do it?" and the answer is, any quliaifed electrician can do it. You`ll likely need to zip out some drywall here or there to make it happen, but in the grand scheme of things, a bit of mud and paint is just a cost of doing business.
I do renovations, and we just did a basement suite in a home. We made sure to have a hardwired detector, but as important, it needed to be outside ALL bedrooms in the house, and they must ALL be linked together according to the code. You need them to all go off if one does. That way the upstairs people aren`t sleeping away while there is a raging inferno beneath them, or vice versa.
As for the whole legal vs. illegal suite debate. Unfortunately municipalities still make people jump through a ton of hoops,(parking, neighbour permission, etc) so a lot of landlords will choose to avoid the risk of exposing their suites to the authorities, lest they be shut down.
Then as a result, we end up with hundreds of suites that violate the codes, mostly because the owners either never know the codes exist, or don`t take them seriously, which leads to the recent tragedy.
In all likelyhood, the person is not inherently evil, they just didn`t know they had a death trap on their hands, and they would never invite anyone to look at it from a safety angle, because they know the city would kill their cash flow.
IMO municipalities ought to have a grandfather clause. "If you`ve been operating a suite for X period of time, and no neighbours are complaining, we`ll come, look at it from a safety point of view, and help you get that aspect up to code, no questions asked." Lives would be saved.
Sorry...end of rant.
Keith
It doesn`t matter, whatever it is, do it! Every single time! whatever the cost it`s nothing compared to the horrendous consequenses of non working, battery operated smoke detectors, in human life, as we`ve seen, as well as the financial cost to all involved(legal fees, fines, parents burying their kids...yuk).
The only question is, "Where can I find an electrician to do it?" and the answer is, any quliaifed electrician can do it. You`ll likely need to zip out some drywall here or there to make it happen, but in the grand scheme of things, a bit of mud and paint is just a cost of doing business.
I do renovations, and we just did a basement suite in a home. We made sure to have a hardwired detector, but as important, it needed to be outside ALL bedrooms in the house, and they must ALL be linked together according to the code. You need them to all go off if one does. That way the upstairs people aren`t sleeping away while there is a raging inferno beneath them, or vice versa.
As for the whole legal vs. illegal suite debate. Unfortunately municipalities still make people jump through a ton of hoops,(parking, neighbour permission, etc) so a lot of landlords will choose to avoid the risk of exposing their suites to the authorities, lest they be shut down.
Then as a result, we end up with hundreds of suites that violate the codes, mostly because the owners either never know the codes exist, or don`t take them seriously, which leads to the recent tragedy.
In all likelyhood, the person is not inherently evil, they just didn`t know they had a death trap on their hands, and they would never invite anyone to look at it from a safety angle, because they know the city would kill their cash flow.
IMO municipalities ought to have a grandfather clause. "If you`ve been operating a suite for X period of time, and no neighbours are complaining, we`ll come, look at it from a safety point of view, and help you get that aspect up to code, no questions asked." Lives would be saved.
Sorry...end of rant.
Keith
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QUOTE (charmer56 @ Feb 8 2009, 01:25 PM) Garth just wondering do you need an electrician to install and approx. what is the cost? Thanks
Yes you will need an Electrician to do the work. We did ours about 3 years ago. I think we paid about $150 per unit then. A good electrician will almost always be able to find a way to fish the wires through the walls, although some will say they can`t - and that leaves some going with battery operated detectors, which I am not in favour of as I described earlier.
Yes you will need an Electrician to do the work. We did ours about 3 years ago. I think we paid about $150 per unit then. A good electrician will almost always be able to find a way to fish the wires through the walls, although some will say they can`t - and that leaves some going with battery operated detectors, which I am not in favour of as I described earlier.
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QUOTE (retiredby50 @ Feb 9 2009, 10:57 PM) In all likelyhood, the person is not inherently evil, they just didn`t know they had a death trap on their hands, and they would never invite anyone to look at it from a safety angle, because they know the city would kill their cash flow.
Keith
Cash flow over peoples lives. You must be kidding?
Keith
Cash flow over peoples lives. You must be kidding?
QUOTE (mcgregok @ Feb 10 2009, 04:35 PM) Cash flow over peoples lives. You must be kidding?
Mcgregok - you seem to know more than what the is in the paper. Or you seem to be preaching.
I don`t know anything about the event other than what is in the paper. And I encourage everyone to never believe 100% of what is in the paper. Anyway, this is a severly tragic event.
I looked up the address and the zoning appears to be a legal suite. The tenants put their own lives at risk by using a space heater over night and too close to a combustible source. The tenant removed the batteries to smoke in the unit. Unfortunately, it appears the tenants did not wake to try to escape. The landlord was charged with bylaw infractions. I assume for not having proper exits and probablly not having a hard wired smoke alarm. I have not heard about any criminal charges.
Mcgregok - you seem to know more than what the is in the paper. Or you seem to be preaching.
I don`t know anything about the event other than what is in the paper. And I encourage everyone to never believe 100% of what is in the paper. Anyway, this is a severly tragic event.
I looked up the address and the zoning appears to be a legal suite. The tenants put their own lives at risk by using a space heater over night and too close to a combustible source. The tenant removed the batteries to smoke in the unit. Unfortunately, it appears the tenants did not wake to try to escape. The landlord was charged with bylaw infractions. I assume for not having proper exits and probablly not having a hard wired smoke alarm. I have not heard about any criminal charges.
Anyone have any recommendations on smoke alarms??
What I think I`m looking for:
What I think I`m looking for:
- hardwired --
- radio communication between units as it is more expensive and very difficult to feed wires in a retrofitmaybe a CO2 sensor? - but it probally won`t matter if the sensor is on the ceiling as CO2 is a heavy gas that remains close to the ground (even though the Global Warming salespeople seem to not mention this-sorry off topic)
[quote name=`Savard` date=`Feb 10 2009, 10:02 PM` post=`50393`]
Anyone have any recommendations on smoke alarms??
What I think I`m looking for:
Anyone have any recommendations on smoke alarms??
What I think I`m looking for:
- hardwired --
- radio communication between units as it is more expensive and very difficult to feed wires in a retrofitmaybe a CO2 sensor? - but it probally won`t matter if the sensor is on the ceiling as CO2 is a heavy gas that remains close to the ground (even though the Global Warming salespeople seem to not mention this-sorry off topic)
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QUOTE (Savard @ Feb 11 2009, 10:31 AM) Update: our handyman spoke to someone at Kidde Canada who said the wireless smoke detectors are not legal (yet) in Canada-- too badNot sure about "legal" or not (define legal?), but you certainly can buy wireless interconnected detectors in Canada. http://is.gd/jc2G
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Other than in areas where the law demands hard wired smoke alarms I think it is a bit of a knee jerk reaction to rush out a spend hundreds of dollars in replacing your smoke detectors.
The is no real world need to provide, beyond basic legal requirements, a safety net that will cover every conceivable irresponsible act that tenants may contemplate doing.
As a conscientious landlord routine inspections , particularly in regions with tenants being responsible for maintaining them, is more than adequate to have a clear conscience.
When you visit your units give the test button a push or have your tenant do it while standing at the door waiting for the rent check..Keep a record of your inspections.
There are literally millions of battery powered detectors in use today that have proven time and time again there dependability.
Many of us have them in our own homes and sleep very well at night.
The is no real world need to provide, beyond basic legal requirements, a safety net that will cover every conceivable irresponsible act that tenants may contemplate doing.
As a conscientious landlord routine inspections , particularly in regions with tenants being responsible for maintaining them, is more than adequate to have a clear conscience.
When you visit your units give the test button a push or have your tenant do it while standing at the door waiting for the rent check..Keep a record of your inspections.
There are literally millions of battery powered detectors in use today that have proven time and time again there dependability.
Many of us have them in our own homes and sleep very well at night.
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In Alberta the Fire Code requires interconnected smoke detectors. This is a Provincial Code. New requirements came into effect Jan 1, although I think this particular requirement was already in place.
Wherever your properties are - check the code requirements.
Wherever your properties are - check the code requirements.
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A quote from the Calgary Herald was:
"The fifth count alleges the landlords failed to ensure a smoke detector in the basement suite had a permanent connection to an alarm in the upstairs dwelling. That regulation requiring interconnected smoke detectors went into effect at the beginning of this year."
Terry
"The fifth count alleges the landlords failed to ensure a smoke detector in the basement suite had a permanent connection to an alarm in the upstairs dwelling. That regulation requiring interconnected smoke detectors went into effect at the beginning of this year."
Terry