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Does anybody Capitalize the interest on their HELOC?

SusanPenner

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I read the Smith manoeuvre a few months ago. Although he repeats himself throughout the book, he only mentions capitalizing the interest on the LOC once. This intrigues me.



He says to capitalize the interest for the main LOC (let’s call it LOC-A), you pay the monthly interest payment for LOC-A with another LOC (LOC-B). You then pay LOC-B with cash. According to the author, both LOC’s interest payments are a tax deduction. He has referenced the Tax Act section 20 (c or d?) as back up, but I haven’t gone and done my due diligence yet to read up on it.



Has anybody implemented this strategy in their business? What steps did you take to ensure a clean audit trail for if/when you get audited by the CRA?



Any comments would be appreciated!

Regards,

Susan
 
I`m no Accountant, but I really don`t think you can capitalize interest payments of any kind. Are you sure he wrote `capitalize` and not `expense`?

So here is my lay-person`s understanding of capital items vs exense items:

Capital costs are the costs to purchase the property, the legal fees associated with that purchase, and any renovations, new construction on the property, major repairs, land development costs, etc that increase the value of the property (some of this is a bit nebulous and open to interpretation).

All other valid deductable expenses incurred in the ownership and management of the property are `expenses`, and are not treated as `capital`.

What you can do, if this is structured properly, is to `expense` (write off against Income) your interest costs, when those funds were used for an investment (for examaple an investment in Real Estate) where the purpose of the investment is to make a profit.
 
One example of when you would capitalize your interest is when you are building a property and are paying interest on a loan or line of credit during the construction phase. Until the property is "available for use", all costs (soft and hard) would be capitalized.

In a "flip" scenario, all costs would be added to the cost of the property inventory, hence captilalized.

In the normal scenario where a person purchases a property and rents it out, the interest is treated as an expense.

Hope that helps.

Todd Stokowski, CA
 
QUOTE (ToddStokowski @ May 22 2008, 12:27 PM) One example of when you would capitalize your interest is when you are building a property and are paying interest on a loan or line of credit during the construction phase. Until the property is "available for use", all costs (soft and hard) would be capitalized.

In a "flip" scenario, all costs would be added to the cost of the property inventory, hence captilalized.

In the normal scenario where a person purchases a property and rents it out, the interest is treated as an expense.

Hope that helps.

Todd Stokowski, CA


Todd, I think it would be really helpful to a lot of us if you could create a new post to describe Capital items and Expense items. It can be pretty complex. Any chance you could put something together to help us learn about this?
 
Todd, I think it would be really helpful to a lot of us if you could create a new post to describe Capital items and Expense items. It can be pretty complex. Any chance you could put something together to help us learn about this?

How exactly is this information useful to investors, anyway?

I have an accounting degree and am in the final stages of my professional designation, and the way that both of you explained capitalising vs. expensing was perfectly fine.

If you`re talking income statement presentation, the costs will show up either way: if you`re capitalising, it`ll be "Amortization Expense"; if you`re expensing, it`ll be "Interest Expense".

In almost all cases, the way I see it, you`d want to expense interest costs, and the only real exception that I can think of off the top of my head (as Todd explained) would be if you were constructing a building from scratch, and chose to capitalise all associated costs until the property started to generate revenue, costs of borrowing included (interest). This would make sense.

If you`re already earning rental revenue from a property, interest charges on the mortgage are a current
expense each month, meaning that they`re incurred in the same period as the revenue was earned. In this case (read: almost always), capitalising would make no sense.

Anyway - this is all accounting stuff that`s not really useful overall to investors. Investors should pay more attention to the Cash Flow rather than the Income Statement, as it tends to tell a more honest story.
 
Sorry - may have been rambling a bit there. A bit of a celebration at work today as a buddy of mine got a new job so we had to run across the street and have a couple shots of Petron
style_emoticons
Anyway...

CAPITAL
Items:

-anything bought that will benefit the asset long-term, so the goal in this case is to amortize those costs over the period where revenue is earned from its acquisition (the "Matching Principle" of accounting).
-Example: a multi-family revenue property is sub-metered. Cost of sub-metering is, hypothetically, $10,000. Useful life of sub-metering is, say, 5 years. Ergo, $10,000/5 years would equal a $2,000 amortization expense per year over the next 5 years for the sub-metering. Of course, you could then break that down by month.

EXPENSE
Items:

-any expense incurred to generate revenue. These are current, recurring or non, and will not materially alter the asset for its long-term benefit (as opposed to a Capital item).
-Example: advertising, interest
, routine maintenance, utilities, etc.

Hope that helps!

Jack
-Future REIN Member
 
Great explanation JRL. Your comment on cashflow is bang on. Cash is king. I think Investors also should understand how to interpret their Income Statements - that is what the Lenders focus on so it helps to understand and be able to present and answer questions on it.
 
QUOTE (JRL @ May 22 2008, 03:51 PM) Anyway - this is all accounting stuff that`s not really useful overall to investors.
I both agree and disagree with your statement above.

1) I disagree because Warren Buffet once said "Accounting is the language of business, and you have to learn it like a language. You can`t be comfortable in the country if you aren`t comfortable with the language. To be successful at business, you have to understand the underlying financial values of the business."

2) I agree with you that an investor should never get so involved in accounting that they forget to invest alltogether. Accounting is much like scorekeeping in sports events. It is important that you know the basics, but you should always concentrate first on playing the game and not focusing on the scoreboard.

The true answer lies somewhere in between these two for each individual. There is no absolute right or wrong position.
 
1) I disagree because Warren Buffet once said "Accounting is the language of business, and you have to learn it like a language. You can`t be comfortable in the country if you aren`t comfortable with the language. To be successful at business, you have to understand the underlying financial values of the business."

Totally agree. Basic accounting knowledge is essential.

My point regarding the capitalisation of interest not being really useful to investors was because it`s a non-cash item, and whether you capitalise or expense really only affects the presentation of your financial statements. It`s just a separate way of reporting the business` performance.
 
Thanks for all the comments about Capital vs Expense…though I didn’t mean to go down that garden path! I’m going to redirect to what the Smith Manoeuvre book terms “capitalization of interest”.



First of all, being an accountant, I have capitalized interest in a major oil and gas company on a multi billion dollar project which issued debt (bonds) to help pay for the construction. So in simplistic terms, what Tod touched on is how I have calculated capitalized interest.



What intrigued me about what the book terms “capitalized interest”, is the average Joe Smith can easily create another tax deduction by paying LOC-A’s interest with LOC-B (see original conversation). LOC-A’s interest is a tax deduction because it was used to purchase investments and LOC-B’s interest would also be a tax deduction. This was a “hmmm” moment for me as I wouldn’t have thought to add this extra step to my matrix mortgage (Smith Manoeuvre) that I’ve just set up. I would have paid my LOC-A with cash.



Below are excerpts from “Is your mortgage Tax deductible? - the Smith Manoeuvre” by Fraser Smith. If you have the book, the whole conversation is on page 72 to page 74. It’s a few short paragraphs….for clarification, F.Smith terms bad debt your mortgage that isn’t tax deductible and good debt the LOC tied to the mortgage that is used for investment purposes. All the italicized paragraphs are direct quotes from the above mentioned book.



Has ANYBODY done this with their LOC’s???!!!



eight:100%">Hope this provides some food for thought!



There is another rarely understood strategy available to Joe that provides him and advantage without costs. It is called capitalization of interest.



Suppose you have a loan for $10,000 and the interest for the current month of $100 is due. You could open your wallet and turn over the $100 to the lender to pay the rent on the loan. IF you have cash flow problems, you might be able to convince the lender to add the interest expense to the principal owed so that now you owe the lender $10,100.



This procedure is called capitalizing the interest – the interest has been converted to capital. Next month you will have to pay interest on $10,100.



Banks don’t usually like to capitalize consumer debt – they would prefer at the least to be receiving monthly interest, in which case the principal would stay constant, but interest would not accumulate. Many loans, such as mortgages and term loans are set up as amortizing loans where a monthly payment covers the interest expense for the month, plus an amount that reduces the principal of the loan.




When the banker capitalizes interest, he is simply lending you more money.




o-->The CRA specifically advises in Section 20(1)Â that if interest on a loan is deductible, then so is the interest on the interest. In other words, compound interest on deductible loans is deductible. The rule to follow is this – as long as you still have any non-deductible debt such as your mortgage, capitalize the interest on deductible debt so that your tax-paid cash flow can be used to overpay your bad-debt mortgage faster. Divert every tax paid dollar you can find against your first mortgage – don’t use your cash to pay for investments or to pay deductible interest – these items should be paid with borrowed money.



I believe there was a note at the end of the book saying it was Section 20(1)(d) of the tax act that he was applying.





Take care,



Susan Penner, B.Comm, CMA
 
I`m also investigating this issue (capitalizing interest) based on its mention in The Smith Manoeuvre - has anyone been able to determine if a deduction of `interest on interest` is allowed by the CRA?

I found the following mention on the CRA guide T4002:

QUOTE You can choose to capitalize interest on money you borrow:
■ to buy depreciable property;
■ to buy a resource property; or
■ for exploration and development.
When you choose to capitalize interest, add the interest to
the cost of the property or exploration and development
costs instead of deducting the interest as an expense.

I`m not sure what this means however!
 
QUOTE (pluto @ Nov 12 2008, 02:44 PM) I`m also investigating this issue (capitalizing interest) based on its mention in The Smith Manoeuvre - has anyone been able to determine if a deduction of `interest on interest` is allowed by the CRA?

I found the following mention on the CRA guide T4002:

I`m not sure what this means however!

Pluto, read Susan Penner`s post just above yours. Both your questions are answered there, along with some good context for you.

Hope that helps,
 
QUOTE (GarthChapman @ Nov 12 2008, 04:54 PM) Pluto, read Susan Penner`s post just above yours. Both your questions are answered there, along with some good context for you.

Hope that helps,

Yeah I did, I just wasn`t clear on whether this was CRA-approved or not. I am not prepared to accept Fraser Smith`s word for it.....

As a matter of fact I met with a tax accountant yesterday who told me I would not be able to get away with deducting capitalized interest on my investment property purchase.
 
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