Judgement for people on social assistance

[kir]

Hi, we have a court Judgement for a renter who were evicted by the bailiff just recently.

After applying for a Writ of Enforcment, Is it possible to collect (ex. 50 dollars a month for the next 24 months) from their social services subsidies (ex. AISH or from Alberta Works subsidies)??



Does anybody have any experience with this or attempted to do this?



Thanks, I made the mistake of renting to this tenant who doesn't have any assets or even a stable job.



Kir.

 

[ColdFire]

I'm not sure what the social services will do for you. You may be able to recover your losses. I'm not sure. I know that while they are your tenants, they certainly could provide you with the cash.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

I just sold my small single family house in Lethbridge .. for a $60,000 gain .. after roughly 6 years of ownership.



However, my last tenants trashed the place .. leaving over $15,000 in damages. We sued them and the property manager who did a less than stellar job (to be polite). The tenant was on AISH, which usually are OK tenants. We have several dozen AISH tenants in our various apartment buildings. About 75% of the rent came from Lethbridge social housing until she was evicted.



Despite witnesses, and after spending $3000 on legal fees the judgement came down: no fault by property manager .. and a $1000 judgement payable by tenant, payable in $25 installments over 40 months !



Go figure !!



So, the lesson is: sometimes tenants do stupid things that cost you (a lot of) money. But just because a person is on AISH or has a certain disability or a certain skin colour or a certain race or a tattoo or funny coloured hair does NOT mean he/she will be a bad tenant. Tenants come in all shapes and sizes, and the odd bad apple slips through the cracks, despite decent screening.

 

[ColdFire]

During a meeting that I went to last night, a landlord was telling me that the only time she got in trouble with a tenant was when they knew how to play the system. Her tenant happened to be a lawyer, so she had an unusual amount of trouble evicting that person. She thought she was safe because the tenant had a decent income. The truth is, you never know what you're going to get, but you an always lower the risks in a variety of ways.

 

[johnsu]

Hi Kir,



Ask yourself this question, "Is $50 * 24 months = $1200" worth all the head ache, stress, and energy to try to collect on someone with no assets?



In my opinon, don't beat a dead donkey, cut it loose so it frees up your mind, energy.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

[quote user=johnsu]don't beat a dead donkey, cut it loose so it frees up your mind, energy.


Well said !



Trademark that phrase !!

 

[kir]

Thanks for those that replied. It's good to know one's options, if any.


We figured it was better left untouched and let these tenants go free since there are legal fees and the possibility of them coming back and breaking a window, or two , is a real possibility.


Kir.

 

[invst4profit]

The lesson to take away from your situation is that a landlords screening process should always consider the question:

Is it possible to collect from this applicant in the event they stop paying.



It is as import as "can they afford the rent?".

Being able to pay the current rent at the time of application although of prime importance does not consider the fact that a persons life situation may change in time, divorce, loss of job etc. therefore a landlord must consider the possibility of having to take virtually any tenant to court for non payment. To be successful a tenant must have assets or be garnish-able.



Although being on social assistance does not necessarily make a applicant a bad person it does make them a bad choice as a tenant due to the fact that a landlord can not collect in the event of non payment.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

[quote user=invst4profit]The lesson to take away from your situation is that a landlords screening process should always consider the question:

Is it possible to collect from this applicant in the event they stop paying.


True in theory .. not true in the real world as you usually do not know what asset they have .. and often they have little !

 

[invst4profit]

Perhaps but in my opinion it is relatively easy to conclude that someone on social assistance does not have what it takes for a LL to expect to collect if they default on there rent.

Generally speaking you can expect a total write off when a tenant on social assistance stops paying rent and in Ontario where it may take up to 4 months or longer to evict the cost associated with that additional risk does not add up.

 

[TonyMandrique]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't it that landlord can arrange direct collection of rent from the government if tenants are on social assistance program? If this is the case, landlords should not have problem collecting rents.



Please help out on this because I am about to make an offer to a property with great cash flow but all tenants are on social assistance program. Are there grey areas that I need to know?



Thanks in advance.

 

[TonyMandrique]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but, isn't it that landlord can arrange direct collection of rent from the government if tenants are on social assistance program? If this is the case, landlords should not have problem collecting rents.



Please help me out on this because I am about to make an offer to a property with great cash flow but all tenants are on social assistance program. Are there grey areas that I need to know?



Thanks in advance.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

Most governments have a maximum they pay for a 1BR, 2BR, 3BR etc. .. and it is often below market rent.



However, it is often better to get this guaranteed rent than collecting from the tenant him/herself .. so judge the rent in light of the property value.



The second issue is that sometimes people are not stable, and need help mentally or physically.



A third issue is that their state can deteriorate.



A fourth issue is that sometimes they give the (multi-family) property a bad reputation if there are too many of them or they are visibly damaging the suite or the building !



We have quite a few people on AISH or other form of government assistance.

 

[Dan_Eisenhauer]

I have created a Tenant Reference check list, that scores the responses to the checks. The applicant must achieve a minimum point score in order for me to accept him/her as a tenant. It is not fool proof, but, it will take some of the subjective judgments out of our selection process.



I am trying to create a form that self-calulates the total. I will post it here when complete.

 

[TonyMandrique]

Hi Thomas,



Just follow up questions if you may:



[quote user=ThomasBeyer]The second issue is that sometimes people are not stable, and need help mentally or physically.




Are landlords oblige to provide some sort of home care services if tenants need help mentally or physically? What are the landlord's liabilities in case something happens to them while living in the rental premises?



[quote user=ThomasBeyer]We have quite a few people on AISH or other form of government assistance.



Do you pre-screen them? Is there a way to get some sort of documentation or more information from the government regarding their 'situations' or 'conditions'?



As always, thank you very much for sharing your experiences and thoughts.

 

[TonyMandrique]

Hi Dan,



Posting it here would be a great help for many of us. Thank you in advance.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

[quote user=TonyMandrique]Are landlords oblige to provide some sort of home care services if tenants need help mentally or physically? What are the landlord's liabilities in case something happens to them while living in the rental premises?
It's a case by case basis .. usually we interface early on with relatives and/or with social agencies to provide long-term care or hospitalization if needed !

Do you pre-screen them?

usually a call to previous landlord (if any) or social agency .. frequently they come with the building as you buy it. Most are long term and don't move around much.

 

[invst4profit]

In Ontario.



Individuals on what is called OW or ODSP (both government assistance) are not legally garnish-able. There is no point in taking them to small claims court for a settlement as a result.

As far as the government paying LLs directly this is possible but the tenant must agree to it and the tenant has the power to cancel it at any point in time and usually does if they decide to stop paying rent.

The landlord has no recourse with the government.

Regarding tenants files with OW or ODSP they are sealed and the government workers are general uncooperative and very protective of there clients interests. Bottom line is the government does not care if landlords lose money.



Also in Ontario in the case of tenants with mental or physical handy caps the landlord tenant board holds landlords responsible for the "duty to accommodate". What this means is if a tenant on OW or ODSP turns bad the likelihood is the LTB will force the LL to carry that tenant with the hope that they will come around and catch up on there non payment. I have seen cases where the board has ordered a LL to keep a tenant owing $5000 and more in back rent ordering they pay as little as $25/month to catch up. Generally these same tenants eventually default and are evicted but the amount by then has grown.



My advice particularly in Ontario is to avoid these types of tenants. They are in a high risk high default demographic, you can not collect if they default and they are extremely difficult to evict all of which is possibly why they are on OW in the first place.

 

[kir]

I guess you can take anybody to court, but enforcing a collection judgement is not going to be easy or successful for people on subsidies.



I think I learned two lessons:

a) if you are going to evict...do so immediately. Sometimes renters have pretty good excluses...like , "My government checque is coming, you will get it soon..." Since time is money, I would rather bite the bullet and will not negotiate a later eviction date other than what is stated in the Writ of Enforcement.

b) secondly, you have to consider your safety...you never know what desperate people are capable of.



Kir.

 

[invst4profit]

Due to the pro tenant position of the Ontario Landlord Tenant Board. it is prudent of a LL to issue a N4 on the second of the month to any tenant that has not paid rent on time regardless of there excuse. With it taking up to 4 months to evict time is of the essence. In addition repeated lates, documented with N4 notices, is a evict-able offense.

I simply explain to my good tenants that it is necessary paper work (allowing them 14 days to pay) but that it is important to treat all tenants equally otherwise a tenant that has gone bad could argue discrimination at the LTB.

Ontario is a difficult business environment for the faint of heart or the kind hearted.



There is a reason why LLs in Ontario are ofter heard to say "no good deed goes unpunished".