Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!

Knob Tube Electrical Wiring System - Reason Not to Purchase?

Nir

0
REIN Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
2,880
A portion of the properties in Orillia have old "Knob & tube" electrical wiring system. Is it, by itself, a good enough reason to decide not to purchase a property, in your opinion?

I understand due to fire hazard some insurance companies will reufse to insure such a property. Are there other companies who will insure properties with "Knob & Tube" Electrical Wiring System?

What would be your MAIN concern (if any) as an investor in this case:
- that it might really cause fire in the future
- that the property will not be insured/able.
- very high insurance cost
- that the city at some point may demand that you (the owner) upgrade the entire wiring system?
- other?

THANKS.
 

BobHudson

0
Registered
Joined
Aug 29, 2007
Messages
173
The lady who has provided insurance for all of my deals (but unfortunately has moved on) once assured me that knob `n tube is not a reason to deny insurance. All it would need is an electrical safety inspection and she would be OK as she felt that it was not generally speaking unsafe.

She was more concerned about lead pipes in the older homes` plumbing.

For me, I prefer to avoid knob `n tube anyway.
 

workman

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
31
QUOTE (BobHudson @ Jan 11 2008, 08:48 PM) The lady who has provided insurance for all of my deals (but unfortunately has moved on) once assured me that knob `n tube is not a reason to deny insurance. All it would need is an electrical safety inspection and she would be OK as she felt that it was not generally speaking unsafe.

She was more concerned about lead pipes in the older homes` plumbing.

For me, I prefer to avoid knob `n tube anyway.

As a former fireman and current home inspector I would stay away from houses that have knobe & tube wire.

First - Yes it is a fire hazard. It is not the wire as much as the fact that the junction boxes are under size which causes heat buildup in the junction boxes, which in turn causes the covering on the wire to become brittle and full off. Once the cover falls off the problems just grow from there.

Second - I find that many insurance companies are requiring that the wire is removed. The problem that I see is that if the majority of insurance companies are not allowing it today and you chose to go with a company that does what will happen in 3-5 years when you go to sell the property. What if the new buyers can not get insurance until the wire is removed? You might have to pay for some of the upgrade as it is a safety concern.

Good luck

Jody Workman
 

mthorn

0
Registered
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Messages
20
The first three properties we bough all had knob and tube wiring. After owing for a few months, insurance did an inspection and dropped us - We were total newbies! Anyway we found an insurance company that was willing to work wit us while we had licensed electrician upgrade all the wiring (went through 3 electricians until we found one who would do it) and we had ESA inspections.

The Fire department requires ESA inspections anyways - so just calculate the cost for upgrading in your deal.

4 Years ago these were my costs per house - We still use this electrician and would be happy to give you his contact info - he is on the ESA approved list.

House #1 - 4 plex – 3693.73

House #2 - 4 plex – 9384.76 – We did major reno’s on this building

House #3 - 4 Plex – 4181.25

Hope this helps
 

terri

0
Registered
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
493
Many of the older homes in toronto have knob and tube so it would seand not all new buyers can afford to rewire the whole house. There are insurance compaines out there willing to insure as long as you have a signed letter from an electrical safety inspector saying that it is safe. Try State Farm. and be prepared to possibly pay a little more.
Don`t quote me on this but from what I can remember, the way that my electrician explained it to me, it`s okay if the light fixture are on knob and tube but not the receptacles because they had to be grounded. Talk to an electrical inspector about it. I usually end up rewiring the whole house because I buy fixer uppers so the knob and tube for me is just a temporary issue during the renovation phase.

I wouldn`t walk away from a good property because it has SOME
knob and tube, but then in Toronto that`s not unusual, and if it`s just a small amount you may be able to replace it in the future if you have some cash down the road. If the whole house is k&t, then I would rewire everything because it means that the kitchens don`t have enough power to run modern appliances and the breakers will be constantly tripping.

I bought one house where the 2nd floor kitchen power would go every time someone used the toaster if the fridge was running because it was on the same circuit as the WHOLE 2nd floor kitchen, 2nd floor bathroom and most of the light fixures for the 2nd and main floor. As soon as I could afford it I put in a pony panel and rewired the 2nd fl kitchen and bath. Can`t remember how much that cost because it was a part of a larger renovation.

I wouldn`t tell you not to buy the house if it`s a good property, but get a quote to replace the electrical, now or in the future before you plan to sell. Talk to a few insurance companies and see what their policy is, call the ESA, and.......

look at the power supply to your kitchens to see if they need upgrading anyway. If the place still has knob and tube then chances are the kitchens will not have enough dedicted power supply to run modern appliances and you will be getting phone calls everytime your tenant tries to make toast. This can be especially problematic if there is only one panel and it`s inside someone else`s apt. I learned this lesson the hard way. Now when there is only one panel for the whole house I make sure that there is a least a pony panel that services the kitchen in their apt or somewhere that they have access to . That way if they do trip something they can reset the breaker themselves instead of waiting hours in the dark for someone to show up so they can make dinner.

Hope this helps,

T.
 

donksky

0
Registered
Joined
Oct 4, 2007
Messages
222
when we sold our first residence we discovered we had knob & tube (don`t know how we got away with insurance- i guess we said we didn`t have it out of ignorance). You can ask that the selling price be adjusted for the price of updating - like our house`s buyer did - they asked that we either upgrade the wiring or we take of $10k off our selling price (as far as I can remember)-so that`s what we did, we just reduced our selling price as we didn`t want them to further complain even if we did the job/upgrade. I`m not sure if the law in Toronto now prohibits knob & tube-details on which parts can be , etc. maybe research this yourself...
 

Nir

0
REIN Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
2,880
Thank You Everyone for the GREAT responses and for sharing from your valuable experience.

The information provided helps BIG TIME!

Cheers, Neil.
 

krisberg

0
Registered
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Messages
1
I just would like to add that Knob and tube has no ground wire like modern electrical systems which can be an increased fire hazard and have a certified electrician inspect the entire electrical system, this ensure that electrical system meets current code, insurance for a knob and tube home is handled on a case by case and
carrier by carrier basis. Find out early what an insurance carrier
requires so that you don`t have any surprises prior to closing.





woertz
 
Top Bottom