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My dilema, the rock and hard place

Guvner

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My wife and I who are both in our mid-late 20`s have a dilema and we need advice on solving.

We bought our current home in November 2007 and put about $15000 into it, plus accumulated some unwanted debt from just simply having bad luck in the finances, vet bills, splurging too much, etc. We bought this house as a long term home, something that we would fix up, make our own then start a family, we both have good jobs and everything seems golden at the time. Now almost 1yr ago I realize finally after 5yrs that I absolutely hate my job and if I am going to keep my marriage going in the long term I need to change careers and thats when we decided I need to go back to school which means relocating to Toronto from where we currently live which is Kingston. Lots of schools for me to go to in Toronto and my wife could transfer her job, plus have a larger opportunity to move with it being a larger market job wise. It was decided, so we decided to throw a bit more money into the house to get it more sellable since we had not finished everything, this is something my agent said was a good idea, so we did that, put the cost on our ever growing line of credit and finally had the house on the market for Sept 11 this past fall, then you all know what happened the economy went down the crapper, real estate prices although stable in Kingston given the large government employment dropped, we started at $243,900 and now after 7 months and lots of interest in the house, but no bits are down to $223,700, but we owe $215,000 on it. We expected that we would lose money on it and we just worked it into our plans which was to sell and rent for a year to help pay down our debt and loss on the house. Next thing to happen was something I have learn to hate, the "interest differential penalty" on our mortgage, first we expected 3 months interest so $3200, not bad, now with rates down to 3.9% we are looking at a nausiating $14500! Our initial plan to sell and rent are no longer the good option, really we cannot afford that.

So what are we looking at financially?
Well we owe $215000 on the house at 5.79% with 3.5yrs on the term remaining.
We owe $28000 on our line of credit and plan to lose $12000 on the house adding in commission and lawyers fees, thats not counting the mortgage penalty.
We plan to be in Toronto (renting) by August of 2010 and have a manageable debt load given that we will be on 1 income of $45000 and living tight month to month.
We have almost no savings.

So the question is what do we do?
On one hand I can only handle my daily job for so much longer, that in itself is another story, but lets just say I am at the end of my rope mentally and having to endure more will start to ruin my marriage as my wife does not want a life were I hate my job all the time. Some may say to suck it up and just keep working, but I have done that for 5yrs and can`t do it anymore.
On the other hand we need to sell, but it seems that we are between a rock and a hard place, $14500 mortgage penalty and having to pay down $52000 in debt or avoid the mortgage penalty and buying a rental property that we could live in for the time being and rent out the remaining unit(s) and have a lower $42000 in debt to paydown.

So the question is would we be making a wise decision to purchase a rental property? would we likely be digging our hole bigger by doing this?
We would be living and renting in Toronto while owning and managing a rental home in Kingston (2.5hrs away) while I am in school full time, likely having a part time job and only having family back home to maybe help out when I cannot get back to Kingston to deal with it. We will maybe have 1 months worth of expenses to cover our costs should we have a vacancy. We have worries of an unexpected expense to deal with or a tenant that stops paying rent or wrecks the place and then we have that financial burden to deal with.

Any advice would be great, thanks!
 

Nir

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"So the question is would we be making a wise decision to purchase a rental property? would we likely be digging our hole bigger by doing this?"

Have you read "Real Estate Investing in Canada" by Don Campbell? if not, you must read that EXCELLENT book before making any RE decision!
2nd, start with a 5-10 years vision, see if you can have a personal vision that both you and your wife are happy with and will be the source of your motivation in the next years. Only then, create an action plan which will be in line with your vision/your personal goals.

Without doing the above first you will remain very confused like you sound now. Going through that important process will answer the questions you asked - to buy or not, when to buy and how many/how often, to continue being an employee and for how long, etc.. I would even add (and some may disagree): to stay together?

Good luck,
Neil
 

Guvner

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I know where we want to be in the future I just need to know right now in the present what will work and what won`t work. Buying a rental, keeping the house and the job or selling and paying off the loss over time, what will be the wisier route to go.
 

Nir

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now is the worse time to sell a property. I wouldn`t sell now especially since you are not exactly about to make money you can later put as down payment to purchase an investment property. [unless it could help you qualify for a mortgage if you sold (I don`t think so but not sure?? each case is unique)]

Whether you sell or not, do you have enough down payment to purchase an investment property? if you don`t i`m not sure what is the dilemma(?) again, selling the one you have will not bring profit you can use as down payment.

To summarize:
- I strongly believe it`s an amazing time to buy now.
- sounds like selling will not necessarily make it easier for you to qualify
- selling with a loss is in general a terrible idea.
- I think your main project should be to find out what you need to do to qualify for a mortgage to purchase more investment properties and do it!
honestly, since selling would generate a loss, deciding whether to sell or not is minor - not even worth your time. just keep it and live there or rent it if you move.
 

Thomas Beyer

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Some words of advice since I was in a similar situation 12+ years ago:

Don`t quit job until a new one is lined up !

Start looking for a job immediately .. on weekends and evenings .. but also ask yourself WHY you hate the job ! Is it
a) your attitude ?
b) the hours ?
c) the money you make per h ?
d) the commute ?
e) the manager ?
f) the industry ?


All of these issues can be solved .. so identify the source of frustration first .. then find a solution .. be it:
a) a change in life outlook / attitude
b) a reduction or shift in hours
c) a raise or different position with same employer
d) a work at home job or a different work location or home
e) a chat with manager`s manager or new job within firm
f) a new job with same skills but in a different industry

Look in the local paper for jobs .. which interest you ? Talk to a head hunter ! Do a career assessment test !

To make some more money .. read this REIN post here on "5 ways to make money" http://myreinspace.com/public_forums/General_Discussion/61-3347-5_ways_to_make_money.html

How to get started in RE, once you are ready financial and emotionally (and quite frankly you are NOT !!): http://myreinspace.com/public_forums/General_Discussion/61-4391-How_to_get_started_.html

Consider re-financing as rates today are 4%, a 1.8% savings on $200,000 or $3000/year if penalties are not to high.

You are too tight financially .. I would NOT recommend adding another stressor to your life !! I see at least 3, maybe there are more: a job you don`t like, tight cash and a failing marriage.
 

mcgregok

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QUOTE (thomasbeyer2000 @ Apr 13 2009, 03:24 PM) .

You are too tight financially .. I would NOT recommend adding another stressor to your life !! I see at least 3, maybe there are more: a job you don`t like, tight cash and a failing marriage.

I second Thomas wise words. Real estate is a business. If you don`t what to be in it or don`t have a solid business plan to finance your plan don`t go in it. I would think you would what to reduce the stress in your life not increase it . If you just can`t sell your property to move on maybe you can get a JV and have your partner live in the house and pay the mortgage etc. for 50-60% of the profits when you do sell . All the best.
 

Dan_Eisenhauer

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As I was reading your post, two thoughts came to my mind:1) Do you have to move to Toronto to get the education you are seeking? Can you stay in your current hometown and get your education via correspondence? Remember that a move adds more stress and expense. And, the cost of living in your town is probably considerably less than in TO.
2)
Have you considered offering your house for sale as a rent-to-own?

RTO`s produce a much higher cashflow than a straight rental, and you have no maintenance or ppty managment issues with carefully selected tenant-buyers. You also have a virtually guaranteed sale in X years, with no real estate commission. If you picked a term that coincided with the anniversary of your mortgage, you would also escape the payout penalty.
 

nepoez

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Could someone explain to me why the penalty gets to become 14k?


QUOTE (Guvner @ Apr 13 2009, 12:25 PM) 7


My wife and I who are both in our mid-late 20`s have a dilema and we need advice on solving.

We bought our current home in November 2007 and put about $15000 into it, plus accumulated some unwanted debt from just simply having bad luck in the finances, vet bills, splurging too much, etc. We bought this house as a long term home, something that we would fix up, make our own then start a family, we both have good jobs and everything seems golden at the time. Now almost 1yr ago I realize finally after 5yrs that I absolutely hate my job and if I am going to keep my marriage going in the long term I need to change careers and thats when we decided I need to go back to school which means relocating to Toronto from where we currently live which is Kingston. Lots of schools for me to go to in Toronto and my wife could transfer her job, plus have a larger opportunity to move with it being a larger market job wise. It was decided, so we decided to throw a bit more money into the house to get it more sellable since we had not finished everything, this is something my agent said was a good idea, so we did that, put the cost on our ever growing line of credit and finally had the house on the market for Sept 11 this past fall, then you all know what happened the economy went down the crapper, real estate prices although stable in Kingston given the large government employment dropped, we started at $243,900 and now after 7 months and lots of interest in the house, but no bits are down to $223,700, but we owe $215,000 on it. We expected that we would lose money on it and we just worked it into our plans which was to sell and rent for a year to help pay down our debt and loss on the house. Next thing to happen was something I have learn to hate, the "interest differential penalty" on our mortgage, first we expected 3 months interest so $3200, not bad, now with rates down to 3.9% we are looking at a nausiating $14500! Our initial plan to sell and rent are no longer the good option, really we cannot afford that.

So what are we looking at financially?
Well we owe $215000 on the house at 5.79% with 3.5yrs on the term remaining.
We owe $28000 on our line of credit and plan to lose $12000 on the house adding in commission and lawyers fees, thats not counting the mortgage penalty.
We plan to be in Toronto (renting) by August of 2010 and have a manageable debt load given that we will be on 1 income of $45000 and living tight month to month.
We have almost no savings.

So the question is what do we do?
On one hand I can only handle my daily job for so much longer, that in itself is another story, but lets just say I am at the end of my rope mentally and having to endure more will start to ruin my marriage as my wife does not want a life were I hate my job all the time. Some may say to suck it up and just keep working, but I have done that for 5yrs and can`t do it anymore.
On the other hand we need to sell, but it seems that we are between a rock and a hard place, $14500 mortgage penalty and having to pay down $52000 in debt or avoid the mortgage penalty and buying a rental property that we could live in for the time being and rent out the remaining unit(s) and have a lower $42000 in debt to paydown.

So the question is would we be making a wise decision to purchase a rental property? would we likely be digging our hole bigger by doing this?
We would be living and renting in Toronto while owning and managing a rental home in Kingston (2.5hrs away) while I am in school full time, likely having a part time job and only having family back home to maybe help out when I cannot get back to Kingston to deal with it. We will maybe have 1 months worth of expenses to cover our costs should we have a vacancy. We have worries of an unexpected expense to deal with or a tenant that stops paying rent or wrecks the place and then we have that financial burden to deal with.

Any advice would be great, thanks!
 

bigbabba

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QUOTE (nepoez @ Apr 13 2009, 05:52 PM) Could someone explain to me why the penalty gets to become 14k?

I would like to know as well, I sold a property back in May 08, broke a 5 year fixed term after only 8 months..I was charged 3 months interest + admin costs of $200..I have heard people being charged $15-20k for breaking their mortgage..just in the last couple of months..is this new?
 

housedoc

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Be thankful you don`t have kids!
You`ve received some really solid advice.
You are in this postion on 2 incomes for a reason. It`s time to re-evaluate more than just your job!
 

Guvner

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Interest rate differential is the difference between the interest rate the lender is getting from you and the current lower interest rate. My interest rate is 5.79% and the current is now 3.9%, they charge the difference in interest between what they expected to get from you (5.79%) and the new 3.9% interest rate. Prepayment clauses state they charge the greater of either 3 months interest or interest rate differential.
From TD Canada trust
Interest Rate Differential Amount (IRD) - An IRD amount is a compensation charge that may apply if you pay off your mortgage principal prior to the maturity date or pay the mortgage principal down beyond the prepayment privilege amount. The IRD amount is calculated on the amount being prepaid using an interest rate equal to the difference between your existing mortgage interest rate and the interest rate that we can now charge when re-lending the funds for the remaining term of the mortgage

My wife and I talked this over tonight and realized that selling our house would not help us and the school thing will have to be put off indefinitely. I`m going to re-evaluate what I want to do in life that doesn`t involve school.
Some of you mention how we need to fix something with lifestyle so this doesn`t get worse, well to explain we made some bad decisions, we bought this house and dumped $1000`s into from our line of credit, we made the mistake of being young and not paying attention to our spending habits, its one of those things when you look back and say WTF did we do? that was stupid, plus we have 2 dogs that have cost us lots in vet bills, our one dog cost probably $3000 in bills so far. The good thing is that all these bad choices has forced us to change things in a big way, we now have a strict budget that we have managed to follow very well and will never use credit unless absolutely necessary. Credit is evil if abused.

Thanks for the help everyone.
 

EdRenkema

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QUOTE (Guvner @ Apr 13 2009, 06:49 PM) Interest rate differential is the difference between the interest rate the lender is getting from you and the current lower interest rate. My interest rate is 5.79% and the current is now 3.9%, they charge the difference in interest between what they expected to get from you (5.79%) and the new 3.9% interest rate. Prepayment clauses state they charge the greater of either 3 months interest or interest rate differential.
From TD Canada trust
Interest Rate Differential Amount (IRD) - An IRD amount is a compensation charge that may apply if you pay off your mortgage principal prior to the maturity date or pay the mortgage principal down beyond the prepayment privilege amount. The IRD amount is calculated on the amount being prepaid using an interest rate equal to the difference between your existing mortgage interest rate and the interest rate that we can now charge when re-lending the funds for the remaining term of the mortgage

My wife and I talked this over tonight and realized that selling our house would not help us and the school thing will have to be put off indefinitely. I`m going to re-evaluate what I want to do in life that doesn`t involve school.
Some of you mention how we need to fix something with lifestyle so this doesn`t get worse, well to explain we made some bad decisions, we bought this house and dumped $1000`s into from our line of credit, we made the mistake of being young and not paying attention to our spending habits, its one of those things when you look back and say WTF did we do? that was stupid, plus we have 2 dogs that have cost us lots in vet bills, our one dog cost probably $3000 in bills so far. The good thing is that all these bad choices has forced us to change things in a big way, we now have a strict budget that we have managed to follow very well and will never use credit unless absolutely necessary. Credit is evil if abused.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Thomas and Dan both have good points.
To me its a no brainer and I`m not trying to be condescending. Kingston has arguably a much lower cost of living and better quality lifestyle than Toronto. The answer is not black and white. Yes work hard at getting into another line of work, pay down your mortgage when possible and potentially build a RE portfolio once you are more stable financially (if so inclined). You might consider staying, your wife keeping her job and look into programs for self employment in a field that interests you. Best of both worlds, one spouse has stable income, other spouse builds a business and can also use part of home expenses as tax deduction (just a thought).
Good luck.
 

Guvner

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Thanks for all the help.

We took the house off the market and plan to just keep an eye on mortgage rates so hopefully if they go up to say 5% or so we can try to sell again next year and not have to pay a brutal penalty. In the meantime we are going to get a roomate at $450/mth, I have a friend storing his car in the garage for $40/mth so thats an extra $500/mth at least to pay down debt.
 

seanverret

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If you want to move, can you rent out the house in Kingston and have it cash flow?
 
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