Recommendations on how to fix Air in Water Pipes problem (or a recommended plumber in downtown Toronto)

[matthewrlee]

I'm have a problem with my fourplex (two basement units, one main floor unit, one 2nd floor unit) where I have air trapped in my water pipes. When the shower is turned on in a few of the units (particularly the hot water), the pipes sound like they are banging really hard to the point it sounds like the pipes are going to bust.



I've tried this solution (and a couple of other variants) in order to try to force the air thru the water pipes or to drain the water pipes and then fill up again, but hasn't worked for me:



http://homeguides.sfgate.com/fix-air-water-pipes-35101.html

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-remove-air-from-water-pipes#b



I need a solution within the next 2 days... either DIY or a recommended plumber in the downtown Toronto area. Would appreciate any help!

 

[matthewrlee]

Part 2:



I didn't get any replies, so I went on HomeStars and found a plumber (the #2 rated plumber in Toronto) called WaterWorks Plumbing & Drains. Service call was $40.



The guy (53 years of experience under his belt) immediately identified the problem as my shower faucet (not air in the pipes). He recommended the removal of the existing faucet (which involves drilling thru the tiled shower around the faucet), installation of a Moen Posi-Temp Valve Chrome, then the installation of a Remodelling Plate so that the tile doesn't have to be replaced. Two showers need it replaced.



Sounds great, until I get his estimate:

1. Install new tub & shower Posi-Temp Valve Chrome: $1396 + tax (each)

2. Install a remodelling plate so that ceramic tile do not have to be replaced: $417 + tax (each)



Time estimate: 4h job (each)



So this looks like about a $4000 solution for two faucets. I almost had a hernia. I do agree that this problem needs to be solved (I certainly don't want a flood in the house), and the guy seemed to know what he was talking about, so it may very well be the faucet. But $2000 per faucet???



To his credit, he also identified another problem as the ball check on my hot water tank, and told me to replace that first to see if that helps (or solves) the issue. So I'm having Direct Energy send someone to repair that (for free) tonight.



Here is the sound of the pipes banging (sounds like a machine gun):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s8ky7yyr65g1z3g/Pipes%20banging%20in%20the%20shower.mp3




Here is a pic of the shower itself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8wf6z03drolirx2/Pic%20of%20Shower.jpg




/raduploads/images/Pic%20of%20Shower.jpg



Do you have any comments? Is he overpriced, or is that how much this job should cost? Any suggestions on how to proceed? Could I call other plumbers and tell them exactly what I want, and ask for their quote on the job?



Or better yet... does someone have a recommended plumber in downtown Toronto (Annex area)?

 

[alaas1977]

Hey Matthew



I am plumber here in Edmonton, the plumber you used is correct regarding these faucets (usually Waltec two handle style), it is because they are quick opening faucets. You can try to open them fast and see if they do it, or also try to open them slow (can't remember which it was). Then show the tenants how to open it so they don't make the rumbling sound. This is a lot better than replacing the units, these Waltec units have been around for over 30 years and common in apartments, condos and townhouses.



Another option is to install water hammer arrestors on the water lines behind the tub, it cushions the sound.



The price he quoted sounds ridiculously high, a basic Moen tub and shower valve with trim is approx $150, the trim retrofit plate is about $40, so why such a high price.



I'd try the above first and then if needed you should try another company, usually the smaller ones that aren't on the first few pages with big ads in the phone book. Sorry but even if Toronto prices are higher than Edmonton, that's still too much (unless he's repairing the tiles etc)



Lisa

 

[matthewrlee]

Hi Lisa,



I tried both the slow and the fast approach, and both lead to the hammering noises in the above link that I posted. Unfortunately, doesn't seem to do the trick.



The brand of the faucet is Kospak.



I've searched the REIN forums, and there is only one single thread about plumbers in Toronto, so I gave a few of them a call. Given that it's already past 5pm on Friday evening, only one responded (Drain Rescue).



Thank you for your input. It's good to have verified that this is overpriced. He told me that the reason it costs so much is that there is drilling of the tiles to install the new faucet, and so the entire job takes 4h per faucet. I asked him if there was any other faucet he could use to avoid having to do the drilling, and he said that they only use premium products that don't break down (which makes sense from his perspective... he doesn't want to have to come back again). Do you have an estimate on what a faucet replacement should cost (incl labour)?



We will see what Drain Rescue says!



Matthew

 

[matthewrlee]

Part 3:



Drain Rescue didn't come (they were on another job site), but said that if he came, he would just start cutting thru drywall to find the problem. Not exactly the approach I want to take... especially given that the kitchen is located directly behind the shower. He didn't think it would be the faucet... even though the other plumber (as well as Lisa, who is obviously very experienced) thought it was.



I found a recommended plumber from another myREINspace thread from Terri Frank. I will give him a call.



Lisa, any other recommendations? How do I solve this problem if 4 different plumbers want to take 4 different approaches to solve the problem? (all with varying prices from up to $4000). I feel like I'm getting taken for a ride.



Anyone else in Toronto: can you please recommend a few more honest plumbers?

 

[alaas1977]

Hey Matt



I wish we were in Toronto to help you out. One thing you could check is perhaps what pressure is coming into your house from the city as it may be too high (but usually all the quick closing faucets would make a noise). The water hammer is created by a quick change in pressure.



If I were you I would go to the nearest Plumbing wholesaler and ask who they recommend, they will give you an honest answer. I am wondering if Drain Rescue deals with mostly Draincleaning, if this is the case the "Technician" isn't usually a Plumber as they just do drain cleaning (a ticket isn't required in Alberta to Snake drains). In Edmonton if you go to the wholesaler it's our company they recommend to people as they know that we are honest and our prices are fair.



The wholesaler is your best bet as they wouldn't recommend anyone who would make them look bad and they have no financial gain.





Best of luck



Lisa

 

[3canctheayr]

Hi Matt



That water hammer sounds pretty bad. How long has it been that way? It's not likely from air in the lines, as that cushions water flow.



It's usually caused when something like a washing machine shuts off really fast and interrupts the flow of water. Even then, that's usually due to plumbing that has somehow been improperly installed.

If the problem is recent, it's likely a fixture, or appliance in the house that is malfunctioning, but even then it shouldn't carry on like that.

Is your building purpose built, or a retrofit 4plex? If it's a retrofit, I'd be suspicious of the plumbing itself.



It could very well be the check valve in the water heater(as mentioned) that is causing part of the problem, however, you should consider having air cushions installed in the lines in specific places to settle things down, even after the problem is isolated.

 

[matthewrlee]

Hi Lisa,

I wish you were in Toronto too



Hi 3canctheayr,

It's not a water hammer issue, at least I don't believe it to be. It is not when the faucets are closed, it is when they are open (specifically the hot water). It's a retrofit 4plex.



I had a technician come in a check the "check ball", and he said that it was fine.



Without really understanding plumbing, I tend to believe that it has something to do with the faucet itself... the cartridge or something. How much would the replacement be of a shower faucet (including all labour)?



Going to try to work my network some more to find a trusted plumber.



Thanks for your help everyone.