Thoughts on Occupy Wall Street

[Rickson9]

As opinions on this matter show, the 1% don't care about the 'needs' of the 99% and vice versa.




To be honest, as part of the 1%, I don't have any needs. I agree with the protestors, but they are powerless to affect change (which is basically the root of the problem). However, the divide will grow until the weight is too much to bear, and then society will reset anew.




This perpetual cycle is a consequence of capitalism.



I just hope that I'm dead and gone during the resetting process.

 

[RedlineBrett]

[quote user=Rickson9]

I just hope that I'm dead and gone during the resetting process.




I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread.



But what about your kids that stand to inherit the problem? By your own admittance you were born in a good time. Do you not feel a sense of social responsibility to provide an equally prosperous playing field to your children?

 

[invst4profit]

It is not possible for us to determine what the future may bring. As far as the prosperity of our children is concerned we have very little control over such things.,Prosperity will depend on the drive, ingenuity and determination of the individual as it always has.



Providing that today's protesters do not upset the present balance, allowing the individual to determine there own destiny, future prosperity will be in the hands of future generations. Long live free enterprise.

 

[DnD]

I think most Occupy protesters have difficulty expressing why they are really protesting. They see problems in our society and the fact that things are getting worse but they have difficulty pinpointing the cause of the problems. Unfortunately, because they can't articulate this, they get written off as left-wing hippies demanding something for nothing and offering no solutions. This really isn't the case and thankfully there are some who can put the movement into words, like Chris Hedges. If you haven't seen the video of him on the Lange & O'Leary Exchange, I highly recommend it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SIhY6El5jk



I think the fundamental problem is that corporations and the super-rich have hijacked our judicial and political systems for their own self interests. The problem isn't "corporate greed". In fact, it is a fundamental building block of our capitalist society that corporations must "maximize shareholder value". I am a staunch supporter of capitalism and I don't have a problem with that. The problem is with our governments (including the Canadian ones). In our capitalist system, government is supposed to be a regulator - the one who establishes the rules and limitations of what is allowed in business. Government must be the guardian of its citizens and the environment and protect them from predatory practices and exploitation. Unfortunately, our spineless politicians pander to big business and the super rich in exchange for campaign contributions instead of looking out for the interests of their constituents.



The Occupy movement is not about being owed a free pension or education. It's about the restoration of law and order in our justice and political systems so that they treat everyone equally and fairly. It's about not letting big business run amuck on this planet in search of more shareholder value. It's about not letting the powers that be trounce on our civil liberties. It's about bringing back some sensibility and restraint to a society that is increasingly losing control.

 

[gwasser]

Hi Ramon,



With my final comment, I meant to say that we should use both our political and corporate voting power to direct society and the corporations we own in a responsible direction. That means, reasonal not excessive compensation for senior manager. Resistance to the excessive risk taking as some financial instituions did leading up to 2008 and to also pay attention to the needs of others in society.



We have not used our political and corporate voting power to create a more equitable world. Often we do not vote at all and just stand with 'an apathetic grin aside the wayside'. If you want to change the world, do not point at the 99% or the 1% accusingly. Start with yourself - don't take everything lying down; instead stand up for the principles you believe in and that starts with using your voting power.



DND, you seem to be thinking in the same direction as I do. Yes, I do not have a lot of respect for Canada's justice system. It is slow, indecisive and seems often to award the victim rather than the offender. Legal pursuit is extremely expensive and only large corporations seem to be able to afford it. Justice for the little man is nowhere to be found.



But would you blame the rich and powerful for that, or is it our apathy that let our justice system degenerate into a toothless bureacratic monster that seems not to be able to enforce its own verdicts? I was once owed $1000 and the court agreed. It took me 10 years without being able to charge interest to get it back. Yet, something is not quite right with a take over, e.g. BCE's a couple of years ago and see how fast the lawyers get to the Supreme Court. I type Supreme Court in capitals just in case some corrupt lawyer feels I treat that court with disrespect, which I wouldn't dare to! There seem to be two different standards.







Hope this helps.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

[quote user=invst4profit]Long live free enterprise.


Yes, but within what limitations ?



[quote user=invst4profit]allowing the individual to determine there own destiny, future prosperity will be in the hands of future generations.
But with huge debt shackled to heir ankles ?



Due to excessive "defined benefit" plans and under- or even un-funded pension plans, current retirees to a large degree live off payments of the young generation .. and that is unsustainable in many instances. Where is the line of pension reduction or intergenerational subsidies ?



[quote user=invst4profit]As far as the prosperity of our children is concerned we have very little control over such things I disagree here. We can leave our kids well off .. or with huge debt. Today we have too much debt IMHO .. debt that exceeds assets left behind too !

 

[invst4profit]

[quote user="Thomas Beyer]

Due to excessive "defined benefit" plans and under- or even un-funded pension plans, current retirees to a large degree live off payments of the young generation .. and that is unsustainable in many instances. Where is the line of pension reduction or intergenerational subsidies ?



================================================================================================================================================

Being one of the individuals benefiting from excessive "defined benefits" and possibly benefiting from a under funded pension plan I am certainly not going to rock that boat. Although it may not be sustainable I wish to see it remain unchecked till the end of my years (20 maybe 30 years). If there is to be a correction to the over debt situation again once I am gone correct away. As far as my kids are concerned, assuming a major correction does not occur in my life time whipping me out, I will leave them well provided for.

I am not about to jeopardize my own personal welfare to make adjustments for the sake of future generations at this stage in my life.



My thinking is probably consistent with the majority of the middle class close to or on pension. Fix the problems as long as it does not negatively impact me. If that is not do able then don't mess with it.

 

[Rickson9]

[quote user=RedlineBrett]



I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread.



But what about your kids that stand to inherit the problem? By your own admittance you were born in a good time. Do you not feel a sense of social responsibility to provide an equally prosperous playing field to your children?







Great question. I've thought about this a lot. I worry about the future of our progeny, but can think of nothing that can head off what will come. Civilizations rise and fall. To what end I don't know.



For better or worse, my child will not have an equal playing field, but an unequal advantage. What is done with this advantage in a generation or ten, is out of my hands. I suppose I could be called a fatalist.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

[quote user=invst4profit]Fix the problems as long as it does not negatively impact me.


Indeed .. that is what most rational folks would do. What we see in Europe or US, and to lesser degree in Canada is just that: the failings of democracies to properly constrain themselves. Why pay myself now when future generation or "others" could pay now ?



The solution is quantatitive easing, i.e. inflation to reduce real debt owed, stagflation (i.e. inflation and stagnating economies), defined contribution (as opposed to defined benefits) for current or future retirees, far more social unrest as every group feels victimized, a lower living standard in the so called "first" world at the expense of more authoritarian states that get things done faster or have less demand than democracies, more polarized parties along what we see in the US now wit no more real centrists parties.



Perhaps more sane policies will prevail .. but only after some more periods of more civil unrest and violent clashes between groups, such as unionized construction workers and construction firms (we see it today in Quebec) , teachers and parents/school boards (we see it today in BC), civil servants and young unemployed (all over the place), flight attends and airlines (just avoided), .. we will see FAR more of this .. with far more violence too until the entitlement mentality across ALL groups is understood and calibrated .. which will take a decade or more likely (given the large number of baby boomers), three !

 

[rforgiel]

Godfried

Thank you for the reply and clarifying things. Nobody will ague with taking personal responsibility for our actions.



The youth have certainly been turned off by our political process. When I was a young man, I felt public service was of the highest calling.



The process does look to have broken down and looks different from my younger days.



If the youth want to engage in non violent protest, I am fine with it as long as they do not become annoying impatient missionaries, or Greenpeace/Amnesty workers, who wish to impose their views on the world and feel righteous about it.

 

[stezam]

Hi Rickson,




I agree with you to a certain extent but I think your premise is wrong. Capitalism is not the culprit. All societies have had their aristocracies, from oppressive states, to monarchies, to democracies. The natural state of mankind is one of inequality. This is our nature. Because no two men are equal in talents, ambitions, privilege or industry, I see any forced program to reconcile this natural state as an attack on what it means to me a free person, an attack on our very own humanity.


All societies have their political power makers. What separates our society from much of the past is the freedom for anyone to make of themselves what they will, through their own god given talents. Capitalism has been most successful, for most people, improving our lives and lifting us up as a people, simply because it`s a spontaneous order of the great masses, pursuing their own interests. What we have today is a what Edmund Burke would call, `a natural aristocracy.` This natural aristocracy is not oppressive. It does not deprive any of the lower classes from their wealth but in fact helps to create prosperity for everyone. It`s reachable for those that are born with the skill and talents to get there.


Burke and Smith warned us against the dangers of abstract notions of natural rights. Programs of forced equality, empathy and the perfectibility of man have resulted in the greatest atrocities known to mankind. From Russell Kirk, `If rights are confused ... with desires, the mass of men must feel always that some vast, intangible conspiracy thwarts their attainment of what they are told is their inalienable birthright.` What do the occupiers believe? They have been told that the wealthy are responsible for their hardships. They believe they have a right to a great education. That they have a right to healthcare. A right to a great job. They`ve been set up to be aggrieved from the get go.


You`re right. The fall of our society is pre-ordained in our nature that is humanity. It will be a travesty. If history tells us anything, what replaces our civil society could be much worse.


I can`t share your ambivalence. For those that know better, it`s incumbent upon us to preserve and protect what is our heritage and tradition.

 

[NorthernAlex]

The point really is that the US Government was pushing bank mid 2000 to actually give out money to people who couldn't afford the homes and than backing them up with FannyMae/Freddy Mac. They would have needed HIGHER interest and not the low ones they had.



Now a few years later is the Government now blaming the banks for what happend.



The 99% should done their research better and called it "Occupy Washington".



I enjoyed yesterday watching Peter Schiff, who went to the demonstrators representing the 1%. Here the link.

 

[Rickson9]

Inequality is a consequence of capitalism. Unfortunately there is no
solution to this issue. Capitalism and surrogates of capitalism are
destined to create, grow, and ultimately, destroy civilizations. It's a
cycle that has repeated itself since man formed capitalistic societies.



Or perhaps inequality is bred into our genes regardless of what financial system is adopted. This is probably more likely.



Either way, there is no resolution. History will show us when the tipping point happened.

 

[Thomas Beyer]

I too enjoyed the Peter Schiff video. Indeed too much government is a problem, as is too little.



In the last 20 or 30 years we have seem far too much government intervention, such as: excessive union power especially in the public sector, too much government intervention in the housing market, too many bank bailouts, loan guarantees for large firms, subsidies for high tech or bio tech or green tech, high taxation, defined benefit pensions ..



And that pendulum has to swing back ..



Far worse in Europe or the US ..but entitlement thinking in both young and old generations has to be scaled down dramatically .. And INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY be emphasized again !



Of course, s.th. that took 30 years in the making will take a while to unravel, but already Greece is proposing a 30% wage cut for public employees, as an example. Canada has to follow, in less dramatic ways perhaps, but still, all is not well in Canada either !

 

[TerryKruse]

Good video. The problem is that it didn't seem like the protestors were actually listening. Unfortunately most of the people don't really know why they are protesting or few could give a usable solution to their grievances.



It seems to me that they simply want a Robin Hood society where the corporations give them money for just being poor.



I have always been an advocate of a minimal government and having government stay out of business. This video echos my feelings.



Terry

 

[Thomas Beyer]

column by Marybeth Hicks, a Washington Times columnist.....





Call
it an occupational hazard, but I can`t look at the Occupy Wall Street
protesters (or any of the other "Occupy" morons around the globe....)
without thinking, `Who parented these people?`



As a culture
columnist, I`ve commented on the social and political ramifications of
the `movement` - now known as `OWS` - whose fairyland agenda can be
summarized by one of their placards: `Everything for everybody.`



Thanks
to their pipe-dream platform, it`s clear there are people with serious
designs on `transformational` change in America and Canada who are using
the protesters like bed springs in a brothel.



Yet it`s not my
role as a commentator that prompts my parenting question, but rather the
fact that I`m the mother of four teens and young adults. There are some
crucial life lessons that the protesters` moms clearly have not passed
along.



Here, then, are five things the OWS protesters` mothers should have taught their children but obviously didn`t, so I will:



1/
Life isn`t fair. The concept of justice - that everyone should be
treated fairly - is a worthy and worthwhile moral imperative on which
our nations were founded. But justice and economic equality are not the
same. Or, as Mick Jagger said, `You can`t always get what you want.`



2/
No matter how you try to `level the playing field,` some people have
better luck, skills, talents or connections that land them in
better places. Some seem to have all the advantages in life but squander
them, others play the modest hand they`re dealt and make up
the difference in hard work and perseverance, and some find jobs on Wall
Street and eventually buy houses in the Hamptons. Is it fair?
Stupid question.



3/ Nothing is `free.` Protesting with signs that
seek `free` college degrees and `free` health care make you look like
idiots, because colleges and hospitals don`t operate on rainbows and
sunshine. There is no magic money machine to tap for your meandering
educational careers and `slow paths` to adulthood, and the 53 percent of
taxpaying Americans or Canadians owe you neither a degree nor an
annual physical.



While I`m pointing out this obvious fact, here
are a few other things that are not free: overtime for police officers
and municipal workers, trash hauling, repairs to fixtures and property,
condoms, Band-Aids and the food that inexplicably appears on the tables
in your makeshift protest kitchens. Real people with real dollars are
underwriting your civic temper tantrum.



4/ Your word is your
bond. When you demonstrate to eliminate student loan debt, you are
advocating precisely the lack of integrity you decry in others. Loans
are made based on solemn promises to repay them. No one forces you to
borrow money; you are free to choose educational pursuits that don`t
require loans, or to seek technical or vocational training that allows
you to support yourself and your ongoing educational goals. Also, for
the record, being a college student is not a state of victimization.
It`s a privilege that billions of young people around the globe would
die for - literally.



5/ A protest is not a party. On Saturday in
New York, while making a mad dash from my cab to the door of my hotel to
avoid you, I saw what isn`t evident in the newsreel footage of your
demonstrations: Most of you are doing this only for attention and fun.
Serious people in a sober pursuit of social and political change don`t
dance jigs down Sixth Avenue like attendees of a Renaissance festival.
You look foolish, you smell gross, you are clearly high and you don`t
seem to realize that all around you are people who deem you irrelevant.



There
are reasons you haven`t found jobs. The truth? Your tattooed necks,
gauged ears, facial piercings and dirty dreadlocks are off-putting.
Nonconformity for the sake of nonconformity isn`t a virtue. Occupy
reality: Only 4 percent of college graduates are out of work. If you are
among that 4 percent, find a mirror and face the problem. It`s not
them. It`s you.



End of Quote.

 

[johnsu]

My thoughts are this:



The issue is "humanity". We are the problem/solution. There will always be equal amount of support/challenge.



That's how the world works, in perfect balance.



We will ALWAYS have problems, that's life. So you can be a "wine(r)" or a "winne(r).



FREE usually sucks and who wants FREE? Only those who believe they are "entitiled"

 

[kir]

I think society is too complex these days. Information is critical and nobody is going to give you good information without compensation. The internet is monetizing information in every possible way. These are scary, yet fascinating times. It's interesting to examine the countries in finanical trouble. It seems like it's one country at a time.



I don't think the solution is to get educated, find a job and quit making a fuss. This is way too passive of an approach. Society has changed tremendously. The solution is to get not trust the government and corporations since there are lots of bad policies and governance, get the best information you can get and hopeful you will not be a victim of scandals like Bernard Madoff, Enron, etc.. Seek a tax accountant to minimize taxes as much as possible. I'm not sure how the US could of avoid rampant foreclosures??? Maybe the US should of disclosed the risk associated with derivatives, hedge funds, etc... Maybe, people should of rented itstead, since nobody could of forecasted the foreclosures in the US. Wasn't the US financial crisis a by-product of market experimentation with extremely risky products? (derivatives, extreme leveraging, credit swaps, ..) . ?



I think people (this includes me) are complaining about the finacial system and how it got there...and consequences are foreclosures, unemployment, declining assets... Was it lack of government accountability/disclosure or people are just fussy and should shut up , get a job and pay taxes without complaining. Its confusing out there!





Kir.