Vermiculite Insulation

[blaine]

Hi All

Don has mentioned several times about vermiculite insulation and the potential issues (now and future) with it.

I was recently at a meeting and Pinchin Environmental (Toronto) gave a presentation regarding what they are finding out there in the field regarding vermiculite insulation. Here`s some of their findings:

- Of the 800 samples of homes in GTA with vermiculite that were tested from
Pinchin`s labs, 70% had asbestos and 30% did not. The ones with asbestos
are all mined from Libby, Montana branded as "Zonolite" and are generally
smaller, while the ones without asbestos were mined from South Africa,
branded as "Micafil"

- If vermiculite is found and is a concern from the client, they can have it
tested for $100 for 5 day turnaround, or $200 for 24 hour turnaround at
Pinchin

- They would need to gather 3 samples in different sections of the
vermiculite at the lower portions (as asbestos settles to the bottom)

- The cost for remediation is anywhere from $6,000 to $15,000, and possibly
even more if vermiculite had fallen into wall spaces (e.g. in balloon
framing)

- Vermiculite was more extensively used in the interior of masonry blocks
than for attics

- Does not need to be removed if it is undisturbed ( so far)

- Ministry of Labour requires that any demolition where asbestos is present,
the asbestos must be first properly removed by qualified asbestos abatement
contractors before demolition begins. This would apply to all types of
material with asbestos in it (vermiculite, vent insulation, drywall
compound, flooring, ceiling tiles). However, this is not a common practice,
and is not usually enforced.



A couple of other things to keep in mind:

-We (home inspectors) are starting to hear rumblings that some insurance companies are starting to
question vermiculite insulation. When we find vermiculite during the inspection we tell the client that
they need to discuss this with their insurance company and confirm with them what, if any, action is required.

- When we are doing a pre-listing inspection ( inspecting the home before it goes on the market) and vermiculite
is found, some agents and/or sellers will be pro-active and have a sample tested to confirm if any asbestos
is present.

For those that don`t know what it looks like here`s a link: vermiculite


Here`s what CMHC says about it: (scroll way down) CMHC


And what Health Canada says: Health Canada

I don`t want to "freak" anybody out, but I think everybody should be aware of the potential issues with
this type of insulation.

Any questions/comments are welcomed!

Blaine

 

[Nicola]

QUOTE (blaine @ Feb 7 2008, 05:19 AM) Hi All

Don has mentioned several times about vermiculite insulation and the potential issues (now and future) with it.

I was recently at a meeting and Pinchin Environmental (Toronto) gave a presentation regarding what they are finding out there in the field regarding vermiculite insulation. Here`s some of their findings:

- Of the 800 samples of homes in GTA with vermiculite that were tested from
Pinchin`s labs, 70% had asbestos and 30% did not. The ones with asbestos
are all mined from Libby, Montana branded as "Zonolite" and are generally
smaller, while the ones without asbestos were mined from South Africa,
branded as "Micafil"

- If vermiculite is found and is a concern from the client, they can have it
tested for $100 for 5 day turnaround, or $200 for 24 hour turnaround at
Pinchin

- They would need to gather 3 samples in different sections of the
vermiculite at the lower portions (as asbestos settles to the bottom)

- The cost for remediation is anywhere from $6,000 to $15,000, and possibly
even more if vermiculite had fallen into wall spaces (e.g. in balloon
framing)

- Vermiculite was more extensively used in the interior of masonry blocks
than for attics

- Does not need to be removed if it is undisturbed ( so far)

- Ministry of Labour requires that any demolition where asbestos is present,
the asbestos must be first properly removed by qualified asbestos abatement
contractors before demolition begins. This would apply to all types of
material with asbestos in it (vermiculite, vent insulation, drywall
compound, flooring, ceiling tiles). However, this is not a common practice,
and is not usually enforced.



A couple of other things to keep in mind:

-We (home inspectors) are starting to hear rumblings that some insurance companies are starting to
question vermiculite insulation. When we find vermiculite during the inspection we tell the client that
they need to discuss this with their insurance company and confirm with them what, if any, action is required.

- When we are doing a pre-listing inspection ( inspecting the home before it goes on the market) and vermiculite
is found, some agents and/or sellers will be pro-active and have a sample tested to confirm if any asbestos
is present.

For those that don`t know what it looks like here`s a link: vermiculite


Here`s what CMHC says about it: (scroll way down) CMHC


And what Health Canada says: Health Canada

I don`t want to "freak" anybody out, but I think everybody should be aware of the potential issues with
this type of insulation.

Any questions/comments are welcomed!

Blaine




We`ve just had an inspection and they found some Zonolite in the attic. Our realtor thinks it`s no problem. I`m not so sure. Has anyone had any experience with this in Edmonton? How long does it take to test, and how much does it cost?

Would you remove your conditions knowing it was there (without testing)? I`m concerned this could be an issue in the future.

Thanks,
Nicola

 

[GarthChapman]

I`mtold you are safe if you NEVER go up there and NEVER disturb the Zonolite (thereby kicking up asbestos containing dust. If I were you I wold have it tested and deal with the remediation in further negotiations with the Vendor.

Hope that helps,

 

[Nicola]

QUOTE (GarthChapman @ May 15 2008, 12:02 PM) I`mtold you are safe if you NEVER go up there and NEVER disturb the Zonolite (thereby kicking up asbestos containing dust. If I were you I wold have it tested and deal with the remediation in further negotiations with the Vendor.

Hope that helps,

Hi Garth,

Thanks for your thoughts. I`ve heard that too - it`s OK if you don`t disturb it.

I`d like to get it tested, if we can get it done on time. My feeling is that the vendors won`t budge on price, though - it was tough to get the price we got.

Just wondering what would happen if we did buy the house as is - has anyone heard of tightening of regulations on this? Or if Capital Health is going to start worrying about it?

Thanks,
Nicola

 

[IanSzabo]

Very good detail, you have done a great job, I would like to talk about your findings. Thanks Ian 647-333-7182 Take Care

 

[GarthChapman]

QUOTE (Nicola @ May 14 2008, 09:29 PM) Hi Garth,

Thanks for your thoughts. I`ve heard that too - it`s OK if you don`t disturb it.

I`d like to get it tested, if we can get it done on time. My feeling is that the vendors won`t budge on price, though - it was tough to get the price we got.

Just wondering what would happen if we did buy the house as is - has anyone heard of tightening of regulations on this? Or if Capital Health is going to start worrying about it?

Thanks,
Nicola


I think you are right to be very concerned about Capital Health. I can`t think of an agency with more power, and they are not shy about using it and can be quite arbitrary in their rulings. And, I`ve never heard of them being over-ruled.

 

[Nicola]

Well... I`ve been doing some reading on vermiculite...

This is from an article on Pinchin.com (written in 2003?):
"Recent Developments in Hazard Recognition and Information The concern throughout North America over the asbestos in vermiculite is increasing sharply due to government attention and increased public awareness....
This increased awareness has started to impact property transfers in Canada. As a result of vermiculite attic insulation being found during pre-purchase home inspections, several home sales have fallen through in Ottawa and Toronto. Some other sales have been completed on the basis that the vermiculite would be removed."
http://www.pinchin.com/hazmat/hazmat-news/...testing.htm#dev

In Quebec, a seller has to declare it:
"When a real estate broker lists an immovable, he must, as for any unfavourable factor, ask the seller whether he has any knowledge of the presence of vermiculite insulation containing asbestos. This information must be included on the Declarations by the seller form so that any prospective buyer is duly informed before making a promise to purchase.

The broker representing a buyer must advise his client to ask about the possible presence of vermiculite insulation, to have the necessary verifications made during the building inspection and, if applicable, to request a more in-depth analysis to make sure there is no asbestos."
http://www.acaiq.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/AA...mp;article=5115

 

[Nicola]

Wow, PHH ARC Environmental (part of the Pinchin group) charges $750 for a three-day turn around, or $1000 for a rush (1 day) job. They send it to their lab in Ontario.

 

[dplummer]

Try Golder & Assoc. They have offices out West & all over the map. Don`t know what they charge.

Doug

 

[Nicola]

Well, the end of the saga...

We got an extension on our inspection condition and came to an agreement with the sellers that we would organize to have the vermiculite tested. If it came back negative for asbestos, we would pay. If it came back positive or inconclusive, the sellers would reimburse us. We got the more expensive ($750) test, as they send a professional to the house to get a sample. You can apparently get it done much cheaper ($250) if you get your own sample. However, I think the report then says it can`t guarantee it came from that particular house if you gather it yourself.

Well, it came back positive for asbestos. Our realtor got a quote for remediation - removing the insulation and blowing in new insulation. You need a qualified `hazmat` company to do this, plus you have to have air quality monitoring, an electrician to disconnect any electrical in the attic, etc. The price for a 870 sq foot bungalow was going to be about $15,000.

We didn`t want to have to deal with this, and said we would still buy it at the agreed price if the sellers would arrange and pay for the remediation. They weren`t interested in doing it, so the deal fell through.

I know right now the government is saying the vermiculite is OK if you don`t disturb it, but I don`t know how this thing will play out in the next few years. Personally, it`s not a risk I`m willing to take. There are plenty of other houses on the market, so why buy potential trouble?

 

[BoydG]

Nicola,

A couple of questions about the property you were considering:

When was it built?

Was it a SF home, or something else?

We are currently looking at a property in Edmonton, and though the inspection came back good, this issue was not on the radar.

Thanks.
Boyd

 

[BoydG]

Nicola,

A couple of questions about the property you were considering:

When was it built?

Was it a SF home, or something else?

We are currently looking at a property in Edmonton, and though the inspection came back good, this issue was not on the radar.

Thanks.
Boyd

 

[Nicola]

QUOTE (BoydG @ May 27 2008, 12:43 AM) Nicola,

A couple of questions about the property you were considering:

When was it built?

Was it a SF home, or something else?

We are currently looking at a property in Edmonton, and though the inspection came back good, this issue was not on the radar.

Thanks.
Boyd

Hi Boyd,

It was a single family bungalow, built in 1951. Vermiculite is pretty easy to spot - follow the link on the first post and you can see what it looks like. I think vermiculite insulation was sold until 1990.

If you had a qualified inspector (RHI), they should have spotted it (I`d never even heard of it until 3 weeks ago!) However, the sellers of this house apparently had an inspection done four years ago when they bought the house, and they say it wasn`t mentioned (I never saw their inspection, though).

Good luck!
Nicola