What do YOU have in your attic?!

[JanBowler]

I am just putting this out as an informal poll on how many people get vermiculite tested for asbestos when buying a home. If your inspection comes up showing the attic has vermiculite insulation but is sealed, it likely will cost about $750 for a professional sampling to determine if there is asbestos present. (Info from a previous post on Rein Space). Also from postings and reading, it appears there is usually no problem if indeed the insulation is sealed and the attic left undisturbed...but the only disturbing thing is the possibility of it affecting re-sale in the future, ie. exit strategy. So, (and presumably this affects many older homes) how many of you would insist on the testing (which will likely come up with asbestos - 70% chance, and a further approx. $15,000 to professionally remove and replace insulation) and how many of you would just go ahead and buy knowing the attic is sealed properly?

Ie. is this a potentially big issue or really nothing to be concerned about?

Thanks for your input.

 

[Nicola]

QUOTE (DavidB @ Sep 27 2009, 04:49 AM) I am just putting this out as an informal poll on how many people get vermiculite tested for asbestos when buying a home. If your inspection comes up showing the attic has vermiculite insulation but is sealed, it likely will cost about $750 for a professional sampling to determine if there is asbestos present. (Info from a previous post on Rein Space). Also from postings and reading, it appears there is usually no problem if indeed the insulation is sealed and the attic left undisturbed...but the only disturbing thing is the possibility of it affecting re-sale in the future, ie. exit strategy. So, (and presumably this affects many older homes) how many of you would insist on the testing (which will likely come up with asbestos - 70% chance, and a further approx. $15,000 to professionally remove and replace insulation) and how many of you would just go ahead and buy knowing the attic is sealed properly?

Ie. is this a potentially big issue or really nothing to be concerned about?

Thanks for your input.

Hi David,

You probably read my previous post about this. The house we were looking at (and ready to buy) had vermiculite insulation -spotted by the inspector (make sure you get a good inspector who is a member of one of the inspection associations). We made a deal with the sellers that we would pay for the test if there was no asbestos, they would pay if there was. Anyway, there was. They weren`t willing to negotiate on price or remove the vermiculite. We walked away just because we were concerned about our exit strategy - who knows how potential buyers will feel about it in a few years. Having said that, someone else bought the house a short while after, and I presume that they would have been aware of the issue.

Nicola

 

[JanBowler]

QUOTE (Nicola @ Sep 26 2009, 06:18 PM) Hi David,

You probably read my previous post about this. The house we were looking at (and ready to buy) had vermiculite insulation -spotted by the inspector (make sure you get a good inspector who is a member of one of the inspection associations). We made a deal with the sellers that we would pay for the test if there was no asbestos, they would pay if there was. Anyway, there was. They weren`t willing to negotiate on price or remove the vermiculite. We walked away just because we were concerned about our exit strategy - who knows how potential buyers will feel about it in a few years. Having said that, someone else bought the house a short while after, and I presume that they would have been aware of the issue.

Nicola

Thanks Nicola.

Yes, we did read your old posts and thanks for the information. I was just trying to get a "bigger picture" about what must surely happen often with houses in a certain age range; we wondered if on balance anyone was concerned about vermiculite, or if it was really not something to worry about too much. Anyone else had to deal with this?

 

[brentdavies]

Home inspectors are now looking beyond eye level, and actually bring ladders to the inspection. Some do.

If you find the vermiculite, either walk away, or make a deal with the sellers to test, and remove, or reduce your purchase price by the cost of removal x2.

For a long term buy and hold, and no renovations in the attic, no issues.

Renovations, or selling in a buyers market, the insulation becomes a big issue.

 

[invst4profit]

Vermiculite has never been an issue for me in the past. Most likely bought and sold some with it in the attic without ever knowing.
Now that I am aware of the issue if I were to buy in the future I would definitely try to use it as a negotiating strategy to reduce the price but the presence of vermiculite would not effect my decision to buy.
Unless vermiculite becomes a major media issue having it would not likely effect my selling of the property.
I would, as I said, attempt to negotiate my buying price but would not reduce my selling price.

 

[GarthChapman]

My thinking is that the risk of future legislation requiring it to be removed, and the risk of potential claims by tenants who claim cancer via exposure to the asbestos contained in the vermiculite is high enough that I would not own a property containing it. This issue has lain dormant in the media for decades, but it is a reality in the USA, our litigious neighbours to the south, so I think it is only a matter of time before it becomes front and centre.

 

[JanBowler]

Thanks for the feedback thus far - it seems a bit like "buyer beware". Any more views?

 

[jwilbrin]

QUOTE (brentdavies @ Sep 27 2009, 10:49 AM) If you find the vermiculite, either walk away, or make a deal with the sellers to test, and remove, or reduce your purchase price by the cost of removal x2.


Excellent advice from Brent. If you absolutely have to have this property have the seller take care of the test and adjust your price; and as Brent adviced, double the estimated cost of removal. As we all know renovation and upgrade projects to older homes is like opening a can of worms -- you never know what other unforeseen problems you are going to find. Costs can escalate very quickly.

Also remember that many contractors now refuse to do work in attics that have vermiculite so if you ever run into any plumbing, electrical or ventilation issues that require the contractor to access the attic, you may have difficulty getting one to do the work.

 

[JanBowler]

OK, here`s our final bit of information just in case it helps someone else: if you are looking at Edmonton, there is an extremely high chance you`ll have asbestos if you have vermiculite. It is certainly worth asking your inspector to look for this. It costs about $900 to get a professional sample tested if you want a quick turn-around (24 - 48 hours). (Much cheaper if you do it yourself, around $300, but I think there are issues preventing the lab from declaring it was from a specific address if done this way). It can cost anywhere from $5000 to $40,000 to have the necessary professional removal - we were told likely $20,000 for a 1000 sq ft area, but they said it could be more. Like Nicola, we have decided to walk away from this one, although others might have negotiated a clean-up deal.

Maybe we have been over-cautious but we were considering exit strategy chiefly, and of course liability risk. I hope that helps, and thanks for all the comments and advice.

 

[Nir]

What if there is no access to attic during inspection (and always)? Around half(!) of the inspections I had for older Plexes did not include Attic due to access. Thanks.

 

[Lucas]

QUOTE (investmart @ Sep 28 2009, 05:33 PM) What if there is no access to attic during inspection (and always)? Around half(!) of the inspections I had for older Plexes did not include Attic due to access. Thanks.


Hi Investmart,

In Edmonton, it is very, very rare to not have an attic access as insulators usually use the attic access to install the insulation when the house is being built b/c the insulation is usually installed AFTER the roof is sheathed and shingled. If there was no access, the insulator would be able to insulate the ceiling...so, even aside form it being a building code issue (all ceilings are to have an access as per the building code), it sort of gets added by default during construction.

I think I have seen it, once or twice maybe...a ceiling can get insulated before the roof sheathing and shingles are installed...but as I said, it is very, very rare. If I was to encounter it on a property I was attempting to purchase, I would make it a condition of the sale to inspect the attic...not only to look at the insulation but also to see the ventilation, the truss system, the possible presence of mold (grow-op or bad, bad ventilation), potential construction blunders (ie. plumbing run on the COLD side of the insulation...I have seen this!!), and of course the type and thickness of the insulation...I have seen properties that have 1.5 inches of wood chips in the attic...which is virtually nothing for insulation...essentially a wooden tent in -40 celsius.

Looking in the attic is an integral part of a building inspection and any reasonable seller will allow access (unless ofcourse they are hiding something)...Also, a listing contract obliges the property to adhere to all applicable building codes, and as I mentioned an access to the attic (I think the opening has to be a minimum of 24" x 30") is in the building code. I would write it in the contract as well to protect myself.

I would definitely create an access to any property that doesn`t have one and take a look...You may be suprised what you find (or don`t find...ie insulation)...Also, if you are paying the utilities on any of these properties you may be able to substantially decrease your monthly expenses (and improve your tenants winter) by renting a blow-in machine and blowing a good layer of cellulose insulation over the existing stuff (just ensure that you dont plug any cross-ventilation around the perimeter of your roof while doing so).

Good Luck,

Lucas

 

[Nir]

Thank You Lucas, Great Input!

I think some of the cases where attic was not inspected were also due to very narrow and difficult to enter attic ceiling entrance. inspector had to come before lunch to pass through

others were "too tall" and said it`s for "little men"

any other funny excuses heard for not inspecting an attic?

Regards,
Neil