Court ruling requires sold Toronto home prices to be made public!

housingrental

Frequent Forum Member
Registered
A major change in Toronto real estate is coming because of a court case! Sold prices of properties are to be allowed through websites in the next few months. I have some thoughts and wanted to get your suggestions on how to best market and provide this information on my site to connect with potential clients. How do you think this will impact the real estate market and real estate agents in Toronto? Read articles here: https://www.cbc.ca/…/business/treb-real-estate-sale-prices-… and here: https://www.thestar.com/…/supreme-court-dismisses-real-esta…
Also let me know what you think here: https://www.facebook.com/adam.hoffman.167527

Adam Hoffman
Real Estate Sales Representative
www.YongeLife.com
Cell - 647-822-1620 (Text or call - I'm happy to talk)

RE/MAX Realtron Realty Inc., Brokerage
182 Sheppard Avenue West, North York, Ontario M2N1M8
We can meet where best for you. I have offices in Toronto, Newmarket, Richmond Hill, Thornhill, Scarborough, and additional locations.
 

Matt Crowley

Senior Forum Member
REIN Member
First stone that begins collapsing the Realtor empire. I don't need any help to push a pen, thank you.

This was happening sooner or later anyways, just now it can be done legally. Frankly, Realtors probably will not be the best ones to publish these prices on their websites in the long term. We need an AirBnB of real estate. Tools on Realtor.com are pretty useless in terms of assessing value. The U.S. has much better tools already such as Zillow. Technologies like OpenDoor are coming too. Crush the Realtor empire sooner than later, I'd much rather pay a lower prices for my next home and have higher liquidity. Providing accurate quotes and pricing is part of creating liquidity, obviously a major win for Canadians.
 

CorySperle

Senior Forum Member
REIN Member
Well certainly you can also cut your own hair, change your own oil, or any other list of tasks one can delegate but who really has the appetite to market, advertise, show, negotiate the sale of your home? Good realtors will still do okay, especially in the commercial sector so I don't see a lot gained here. After trying (and failing) on my own several times to sell both residential and commercial, I would never even entertain the thought of doing so again.
 

housingrental

Frequent Forum Member
Registered
Thanks for your thoughts Matt!
Having data easier to access online will reduce the need of using an agent, this is only a small part of the services provided.
Many people will still want analysis of the data and the other help that can be provided.
My question to you becomes how can I change my business to use this as an opportunity to grow and help potential clients?

Adam Hoffman
Real Estate Sales Representative
RE/MAX Realtron Realty Inc., Brokerage
www.YongeLife.com
Cell - 647-822-1620 (Text or call - I'm happy to talk)

First stone that begins collapsing the Realtor empire. I don't need any help to push a pen, thank you.

This was happening sooner or later anyways, just now it can be done legally. Frankly, Realtors probably will not be the best ones to publish these prices on their websites in the long term. We need an AirBnB of real estate. Tools on Realtor.com are pretty useless in terms of assessing value. The U.S. has much better tools already such as Zillow. Technologies like OpenDoor are coming too. Crush the Realtor empire sooner than later, I'd much rather pay a lower prices for my next home and have higher liquidity. Providing accurate quotes and pricing is part of creating liquidity, obviously a major win for Canadians.
 

housingrental

Frequent Forum Member
Registered
Thanks Cory, it is good to read diverse perspectives.

Adam Hoffman
Real Estate Sales Representative
RE/MAX Realtron Realty Inc., Brokerage
www.YongeLife.com
Cell - 647-822-1620 (Text or call - I'm happy to talk)
 

TangoWhiskey

Frequent Forum Member
Registered
Hi Adam, contact some bigger experienced realtors in Nova Scotia. A little known fact about RE investing in Nova Scotia is that for some reason NS escaped the standard realtor monopolization of sales information and some bright spark started a website called Viewpoint several years ago that is free and critically, includes the past sales data and prices. When a property has listed, for how much, how much it sold for, property tax assessments, its an incredibly powerful resource that essentially supplants some of the role of the traditional realtor. You can get ownership information for a fee, not sure if it includes mortgage balances yet.
In short, its a very powerful tool for real estate investors, both commercial and residential. The realtors out here who were in business when Viewpoint started up can give you an idea of the evolution of the business after it entered the scene.
Personally I don't think it changes things enormously. It boils down to motivation of people to dig and find out about stuff, many people especially older ones apparently aren't aware of it.
good luck.
 

Michel Lafleur

Frequent Forum Member
REIN Member
Its fascinating to me how the initial question asked by a Realtor was answered in an anti-Realtor tone. Realtors don't protect the data, our Real Estate Boards do. As a Realtor we pay hefty fees to our respective real estate boards so that we can have access to that sales data. As a Realtor, I want to be of utility to my clients which often means sharing/using the MLS sales data. In my business the sales data I provide is free. But, I do charge for my time and my clients respect that.

For HousingRental/Adam above - see below for a few ideas on how I add value for my clients sharing MLS sales data in AB where MLS sales data is still private.
I'm hoping this response will also shed some light for MrCrowley on the value that Realtors can add to the business relationships we have with clients. I certainly agree that some Realtors suck, and arent worth their weight in manure. But, there are still many good Realtors out there who will continue to earn home owner's business after MLS sales data becomes public. There is nothing today preventing Comfree, FSBO's, Kijiji, SellerInvite, etc. from helping people sell homes without Realtors.


In my opinion few consumers really care about knowing all the sales data. Most people want to know what the house next door and the similar one down the street sold for. If those people care enough, they will find out without direct access to MLS sales data.
The ones frustrated by the captive sales data are the analysts and authors who make a living interpreting data that isn't easy for them to find, and the perhaps 2% of consumers who think they could buy/sell real estate better themselves if only they had access to current sales information. Keep in mind if you're a REIN member reading this post, you aren't an "average consumer" by anybody's definition.

I work with a number of investor clients who have me prepare CMA's for them all the time, and I know that I wont be writing that business as "their Realtor". For those who arent familiar, a CMA is a Comparative Market Analysis - which uses MLS sales data, and a Realtor's discretion on relevant comparable properties that have sold, and one's current available that you would be competing with. More important than all the MLS sales data is finding accurate comparable properties ("comps"), meaning similar type/style, location, quality, size etc.

Examples for CMA requests that I commonly get are for a FSBO a client is considering, or when they have an RTO tenant-buyer and want to know current market value for a property they bought years ago. Or when they are doing a renovation project, and want an idea of ARV (after repair value) so they have an idea how much cash they can recuperate with refinancing. These clients can more than justify paying a nominal fee (such as $50 per CMA) to have someone prepare this information for them. The "Fee" for this service isn't about access to MLS sales data - its about respecting the time that I put in so that my clients didnt have to.
As a professional who understands what my investor clients are looking for, I know that in the time I prepared that CMA, they may have written another offer (on that FSBO), placed a tenant-buyer (in one of their rentals), manged contractors on their current renovation project, or prospected another opportunity to worth pursuing.

When I do a CMA for home owners (what Im referring to as "average consumers"), it includes MLS sales data and comparable property analysis. These CMA's are FREE. Its true that by sharing this free CMA, I hope to earn that home owners business. The home owners knows that I won't get paid until that house is sold, and that's ultimately why they are choosing to work with a Realtor.
Most home owners will have a CMA done by at least 3 Realtors, and will choose to work with the Realtor who says they can sell for the most money, regardless of what their quoted fees are. I suspect this is the type of Realtor your average home owners is frustrated with - the one who promised a top dollar sale in record time, just to earn the business, but couldnt put the deal together without several price reductions.
The other 2 Realtors in my 3 Realtor example probably offered a realistic perspective of a fair sale price, but did not get the listing. A confident Realtor will know this game, and be confident in the CMA info they presented. I have been the #2 Realtor a few times now which doesn't bother me; I'm proud to have been the Realtor who got the property sold for those clients, and earned whatever fees were associated with that sale.

I dont think public access to sales data will change much.
Id be curious to know how many home owners get a few free CMA's and have all the comparable sales info available to them, but still choose to go about selling that property on their own.
Or what percentage of home owners get 3 CMA's and choose to ignore the rational numbers (presumably from the "majority" of those CMA's) and still hope for the highest sale price. Who's the crook here, the Realtor charging big fees, or the homeowner looking to maximize profit?

Personally, I'd like to see the name of the agent on signs who bought/sold the property, not just the Realtor who listed it.
When I have permission from clients to disclose the sale prices, I send out flyers/advertising to the area saying the szubject property sold for xx% of list price after just YY days on market. The homeowners in the area may verabally ask the price, and I have no problem telling them (as long as my clients permit me to disclose those numbers.)

Just my 2 cents....
 

Alvaro Sanchez

Ottawa-Gatineau Investor
Registered
You must realize that the system has been setup up to maximize profits (for agents, brokers, mls, etc - Not consumers -) and have worked that way for many years. This is no secret to anyone and whoever says the opposite is living on la-la land. This is very similar to the banking / mutual fund industry where you have "financial advisors" or so called experts reading scripts to sell you the same stuff that they get a commission on it - clear conflict of interest - (regardless of you making a profit or not). That is why the MLS fought this in court, they are killing the golden goose as information is key. If you are the only one who know about it, you can easily profit. If everyone knows the facts then it more difficult to make money (as easily as before).

If you are an agent or becoming one in this environment, you better be able to package the product and do a better marketing than others. This is no difference that becoming good at sales. So as others suggested, identify the best agents and see what they do to try to improve on their techniques.
 

Martin1968

Frequent Forum Member
Registered
Its fascinating to me how the initial question asked by a Realtor was answered in an anti-Realtor tone. Realtors don't protect the data, our Real Estate Boards do. As a Realtor we pay hefty fees to our respective real estate boards so that we can have access to that sales data. As a Realtor, I want to be of utility to my clients which often means sharing/using the MLS sales data. In my business the sales data I provide is free. But, I do charge for my time and my clients respect that.

For HousingRental/Adam above - see below for a few ideas on how I add value for my clients sharing MLS sales data in AB where MLS sales data is still private.
I'm hoping this response will also shed some light for MrCrowley on the value that Realtors can add to the business relationships we have with clients. I certainly agree that some Realtors suck, and arent worth their weight in manure. But, there are still many good Realtors out there who will continue to earn home owner's business after MLS sales data becomes public. There is nothing today preventing Comfree, FSBO's, Kijiji, SellerInvite, etc. from helping people sell homes without Realtors.


In my opinion few consumers really care about knowing all the sales data. Most people want to know what the house next door and the similar one down the street sold for. If those people care enough, they will find out without direct access to MLS sales data.
The ones frustrated by the captive sales data are the analysts and authors who make a living interpreting data that isn't easy for them to find, and the perhaps 2% of consumers who think they could buy/sell real estate better themselves if only they had access to current sales information. Keep in mind if you're a REIN member reading this post, you aren't an "average consumer" by anybody's definition.

I work with a number of investor clients who have me prepare CMA's for them all the time, and I know that I wont be writing that business as "their Realtor". For those who arent familiar, a CMA is a Comparative Market Analysis - which uses MLS sales data, and a Realtor's discretion on relevant comparable properties that have sold, and one's current available that you would be competing with. More important than all the MLS sales data is finding accurate comparable properties ("comps"), meaning similar type/style, location, quality, size etc.

Examples for CMA requests that I commonly get are for a FSBO a client is considering, or when they have an RTO tenant-buyer and want to know current market value for a property they bought years ago. Or when they are doing a renovation project, and want an idea of ARV (after repair value) so they have an idea how much cash they can recuperate with refinancing. These clients can more than justify paying a nominal fee (such as $50 per CMA) to have someone prepare this information for them. The "Fee" for this service isn't about access to MLS sales data - its about respecting the time that I put in so that my clients didnt have to.
As a professional who understands what my investor clients are looking for, I know that in the time I prepared that CMA, they may have written another offer (on that FSBO), placed a tenant-buyer (in one of their rentals), manged contractors on their current renovation project, or prospected another opportunity to worth pursuing.

When I do a CMA for home owners (what Im referring to as "average consumers"), it includes MLS sales data and comparable property analysis. These CMA's are FREE. Its true that by sharing this free CMA, I hope to earn that home owners business. The home owners knows that I won't get paid until that house is sold, and that's ultimately why they are choosing to work with a Realtor.
Most home owners will have a CMA done by at least 3 Realtors, and will choose to work with the Realtor who says they can sell for the most money, regardless of what their quoted fees are. I suspect this is the type of Realtor your average home owners is frustrated with - the one who promised a top dollar sale in record time, just to earn the business, but couldnt put the deal together without several price reductions.
The other 2 Realtors in my 3 Realtor example probably offered a realistic perspective of a fair sale price, but did not get the listing. A confident Realtor will know this game, and be confident in the CMA info they presented. I have been the #2 Realtor a few times now which doesn't bother me; I'm proud to have been the Realtor who got the property sold for those clients, and earned whatever fees were associated with that sale.

I dont think public access to sales data will change much.
Id be curious to know how many home owners get a few free CMA's and have all the comparable sales info available to them, but still choose to go about selling that property on their own.
Or what percentage of home owners get 3 CMA's and choose to ignore the rational numbers (presumably from the "majority" of those CMA's) and still hope for the highest sale price. Who's the crook here, the Realtor charging big fees, or the homeowner looking to maximize profit?

Personally, I'd like to see the name of the agent on signs who bought/sold the property, not just the Realtor who listed it.
When I have permission from clients to disclose the sale prices, I send out flyers/advertising to the area saying the szubject property sold for xx% of list price after just YY days on market. The homeowners in the area may verabally ask the price, and I have no problem telling them (as long as my clients permit me to disclose those numbers.)

Just my 2 cents....


I can definitely appreciate the fact that you are sticking to the original post and are trying to answer to the best of your ability. Your are probably right about your feelings about the initial posts’ tone becoming a bit more anti realtor. It seems that way.

However, reading though all the responses, I would like to say that personally I’m not against using a realtor, I see their value, and also, there are good and bad in everything.

But what I would like to point out though is, that as a consumer, I would like to have your BEST service, BEST sharing of info, as well as BEST marketing techniques offered to me at a competitive price. But what I hear over and over is that, I should hire a you as a realtor based on your USP, but have to fork over, in what many, if not most, consumers see as a unreasonable amount of commissions. If your service comes at full commissions as opposed to new ways of marketing at half the commissions, you need to have a darn good convincing story for me to choose you. Right now I don’t see it.
Furthermore, many realtors (but not all) are still doing everything they can to keep a (slowly) changing industry to old standards.
So no, not negative about realtors as a whole, but definitely we do need a change in the industry.
 

Michel Lafleur

Frequent Forum Member
REIN Member
I can definitely appreciate the fact that you are sticking to the original post and are trying to answer to the best of your ability. Your are probably right about your feelings about the initial posts’ tone becoming a bit more anti realtor. It seems that way.

However, reading though all the responses, I would like to say that personally I’m not against using a realtor, I see their value, and also, there are good and bad in everything.

But what I would like to point out though is, that as a consumer, I would like to have your BEST service, BEST sharing of info, as well as BEST marketing techniques offered to me at a competitive price. But what I hear over and over is that, I should hire a you as a realtor based on your USP, but have to fork over, in what many, if not most, consumers see as a unreasonable amount of commissions. If your service comes at full commissions as opposed to new ways of marketing at half the commissions, you need to have a darn good convincing story for me to choose you. Right now I don’t see it.
Furthermore, many realtors (but not all) are still doing everything they can to keep a (slowly) changing industry to old standards.
So no, not negative about realtors as a whole, but definitely we do need a change in the industry.

I don't disagree with your sentiments...the real estate industry seems to be changing at a slower pace than other industries, and there are some real estate professionals who are trying to prevent/slow things from changing. For some of the very high income real estate professionals, they are simply trying to preserve their exorbitant income as long as they can; selfishly understandable. From a consumer perspective its obvious that those Realtor's arent fully representing a consumer's interests first and foremost.
My philosophy is that I want to be in this industry the next 30+ years, so I need to embrace the changes and find ways to keep earning business as opposed to just getting business today. In always looking for long-term business relationships and to create win-win scenarios that will earn a client's business and future referrals.

When it comes to Realtor fees, buyers rarely pay anything out of pocket for a Realtor's services.

For investor support services (such as CMA's for properties that won't be bought/sold through a Realtor), the fee per service is negotiated between the Realtor and investor pending that nature of that business relationship.
If you are a seller with an investment product that I want to represent, I will absolutely offer you my best service for a competitive fee.
A couple examples here.....
I have flippers who use me to acquire a property (I get paid buyer's fee from whomever is selling that property) at no cost to my client. When I go to list that property once its ready to go back on the market, the seller will pay a full buyer's fee (assuming another Realtor represents the ultimate buyer), and my fee for selling is smaller, but sufficient to cover my time and hard marketing costs. Flipper selles that property for a profit, and I take them shopping for the next one. Them having a good product helps me meet more prospective customers. Win-win.
Another scenario is where I have seller clients with a disirable investment product (showing healthy cashflow and/or cap rate etc.) that I want to represent. As a business man, I know this product help me meet prospective investor clients whom I want to work with. If I can double end that deal, all I'm looking for is a 1 sided fee for representing the new buyer. The investor saves $$ (fees) on the sale, presumably profit from the transaction, and I may have found myself a new client. Another win-win scenario.
I have clients who will say something to the effect of "if you can bring a buyer who will pay $__ for the property, I will pay you this fee." These become exclusive pocket listings, another win-win scenerio for everyone involved.

The fees are always highest for sellers, which in the context of this conversation are what Im going to call "general consumers", or a Realtor's customers. FULL DISLCOSURE - Realtor fees are always negotiable pending the relationship between the Realtor and customer.
I cant speak for all Realtors, but in my business fees vary for sellers based on a few things - namely urgency, price expectations and the specific product, and the fact that some homes are easier/harder to sell than others.
If the seller is looking to sell their home and simultaneously buy another, I will sell their home for less (low seller fee, but offering full buyer's fee), knowing that I will get the full buyer's fee when they make their purchase.
In short, everything is negotiable. Some people dont ask questions or try to negotiate... which is another argument of why they should have somebody representing their best interests. If they dont bring it up first, I often approach that conversation/negotiation as a way to demonstrate that I am looking out for their best interests, hoping to create a win-win scenario for everyone involved.
 

Michel Lafleur

Frequent Forum Member
REIN Member
On another note closer to the original question/topic asked, what are people's thoughts on the new REISS program that REIN and RESAAS are developing? I look forward to getting on board with these, even though I know it may start to "take away" from what is typically thought of as a Realtor's job.
Im encouraged by this innovation; I want to work with investors, and this will give me more access to investor specific property information.
For those who havent heard of this yet, its supposed to be free for REIN memebrs/investors who choose to use it. They can "share" their portfolio info (what, where, prices, rents etc.) to help other investors make informed decisions, and use it for their own research purposes which may or may not include a Realtor.
Free information will be there.....question for me is will people know how to use it? And how can I as a Realtor leverage these tools to win you business and help those who still want help, even though they could do it on their own.
 
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