Hot Water Baseboard Heaters - Recommended?

[RE123RE]

Hi,
Do you recommend installing hot water baseboard heaters in apartments (and a boiler in the utility room) in properties where there are currently regular electric baseboard heaters?
(Regular electric baseboard heaters are not efficient and the worse cost-wise)
Would you do it both in a triplex and say 30-plex?
Any experience doing that in your building/s?
I heard Reliance now rents the equipment and will even install it for you (not sure how that works).
Is it correct installation is not very difficult, much easier than installing a furnace with ducts for example?
I think you need 2 small holes drilled between apartments/walls for water pipes connecting the different heaters in the building.
The savings, if true, can apparently reach 50%(!) This means a significant increase and improvement in your property value and cash flow.
Thanks

 

[SVS]

In my personal opinion I would keep the electric and put my money into separating the hydro for the triplex. Although if you're in a high end market, they may not like the ugly look. I would buy a boiler in the 30 Plex if its not seperated hydro.

I would stay away from reliance and renting anything like that, they charge a massive premium over the course of the rental when quantified.

 

[James Benson]

What about grid tied solar supplementing the electricity to off set the cost of electric baseboards? In the warmer months your meter would run backwards and you get a credit that you can use in the winter.

 

[SVS]

What about grid tied solar supplementing the electricity to off set the cost of electric baseboards? In the warmer months your meter would run backwards and you get a credit that you can use in the winter.

Whats the re capture rate on something like that? Also do they require maintenance and how often?

 

[James Benson]

Well if it's tied directly to the grid through an inverter (or a bunch of micro inverters) then your rate of return is as much as you want/ need it to be, if you need more power than just add more panels. Don't bother with a battery system as every time you go through a device you loose power, and don't bother with panels that follow the sun as more moving parts means more maintenance. Your installer can check the lowest angle of the sun in winter and the highest in summer and set the panels on the average angle, and centre it east to west. Now all you have are stationary panels some wire and an inverter (or a bunch of micro inverters) and they just tie into your existing meter, so there will be less maintenance than a boiler system, which has more parts so more things can go wrong. If you have enough room than you can actually generate so much power that the power company will pay you for it. You can get free estimates and the solar installer will do a bunch of math and tell you how much power you need.

 

[SVS]

Well if it's tied directly to the grid through an inverter (or a bunch of micro inverters) then your rate of return is as much as you want/ need it to be, if you need more power than just add more panels. Don't bother with a battery system as every time you go through a device you loose power, and don't bother with panels that follow the sun as more moving parts means more maintenance. Your installer can check the lowest angle of the sun in winter and the highest in summer and set the panels on the average angle, and centre it east to west. Now all you have are stationary panels some wire and an inverter (or a bunch of micro inverters) and they just tie into your existing meter, so there will be less maintenance than a boiler system, which has more parts so more things can go wrong. If you have enough room than you can actually generate so much power that the power company will pay you for it. You can get free estimates and the solar installer will do a bunch of math and tell you how much power you need.

That answers some of my question, but I would like to know how it takes to recapture your initial investment in your experience, as I would expect the installation company to give me a rate using maximum potential performance.

I don't understand how my rate of return can be as much as I want it to be? If I buy 10k in panels would I genrate 50$/m 100/m or 1000/m on average in electricity savings?

I know you obviously can't give me a guaranteed answers but a ball park would be nice.

 

[James Benson]

^ you would need to discuss this with a professional, there's a lot of factors such as dirt, elevation, average sunlight per day, panel quality, the light bulbs your building has, the amount of power each appliance uses, the kind of wiring, connections ext. however this will all be taken into account during the designing of your system, and realistically it should cover your power bill 90-110%, so you divide the cost bye your monthly bill and that will tell you how many months it will take to pay off. After that your making money. As a more direct answer to how much a month it will save you, it's your entire power bill.

 

[James Benson]

^unless you go above and beyond then it depends on how far you are willing to go.

 

[James Benson]

^ ^ I have a few quotes lined up, if you tell me how manny units, the average square footage of each, and you current average power bill cost and KWH's I will ask them and let you know.

 

[James Benson]

Using my numbers in my area with the house I'm looking at installing them on, $10k cuts $50 a month off the power bill on average, and $20 k rolls the meter backwards. If you are paying utilities then it could make sense to do this, just compare your payments to your electrical savings. The first few thousand are spent on paperwork and Politics, so the bigger systems are more cost effective, since at that point your just adding panels. Just make sure they offer net metering in your area. Also check what kind of grants you can get in your area, I've seen them up to 9k, so potentially you could get a system that rolls back the meter for 11k on a single family home.

 

[Matt Crowley]

In my personal opinion I would keep the electric and put my money into separating the hydro for the triplex. Although if you're in a high end market, they may not like the ugly look. I would buy a boiler in the 30 Plex if its not seperated hydro.

Samuel, are you guys seeing separated hydro bills commonly on Ontario (?) units? We are years away from that in Alberta. It is all-in utilities, all-out, or separate electricity only. (There may be a one-off weird one but that is the today's rental market).

 

[SVS]

Yeah without a doubt Hydro here in Ontario is getting ignorant. I recommend to any of my clients to buy with separate meters unless the numbers are great. Even when they do buy without I say to split the meters ASAP. You can find a 8-10% cap rate at face value, when your due diligence is completed being in the red with a 2 or 3 unit building is not uncommon. The biggest problem is our rates seems to growing like compound interest, and we just sold Hydro one......

When I had my own single family home about 1400 sq/ft It was not un-common for me to pay over 140/m on average in electricity, plus about 120-150 for gas heat in the winter, and 30/m in the summer on top of that water charges which varied considerably around 60-120/m. Also I had a wood stove to mitigate the heating and electricity costs, that was me and 1 friend, we both worked 10 hour days hardly at home using it.

If you have a stay at home mom renting,home business or even a gear head using power tools in the garage using a lot of electricity during peaks hours, it could severely cripple your cash flow.

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/12/02/ontario-hydro-rates-to-rise-42-in-5-years

 

[SVS]

Using my numbers in my area with the house I'm looking at installing them on, $10k cuts $50 a month off the power bill on average, and $20 k rolls the meter backwards. If you are paying utilities then it could make sense to do this, just compare your payments to your electrical savings. The first few thousand are spent on paperwork and Politics, so the bigger systems are more cost effective, since at that point your just adding panels. Just make sure they offer net metering in your area. Also check what kind of grants you can get in your area, I've seen them up to 9k, so potentially you could get a system that rolls back the meter for 11k on a single family home.

Perfect that's the answer I was looking for! Double check my math please, but the payback would be 16.7 years without repairs. Not including any grant money or tax deductions. Seems like a decent investment for a larger building you don't plan on selling.

Although as a realtor I would be wary on residential single family, but Multis seem like a great place for them.

 

[James Benson]

Perfect that's the answer I was looking for! Double check my math please, but the payback would be 16.7 years without repairs. Not including any grant money or tax deductions. Seems like a decent investment for a larger building you don't plan on selling.

Although as a realtor I would be wary on residential single family, but Multis seem like a great place for them.

Yea you really gotta do the math to check if it's worth it. Actually I calculated that $50/m savings based on block one rates, if you are going over 1600kw/h bi monthly then you will save $75/m on a $10k investment. It will vary month to month though, more savings in spring and summer and less in winter, but that's about what it averages out to.