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realtor conflict of interest

bizaro86

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Oct 31 2010, 04:43 PM) Did you know that Expedia charges 25% commission of the hotel room rate for bookings? I wouldn`t call that a cheap seller`s commission as some try to get with MLS.


If information is free, then services have to be expensive.
 

Thomas Beyer

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QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Oct 31 2010, 04:14 PM) If information is free, then services have to be expensive.
services for WHAT though ?

services BY WHOM ?

sellers might do more showings themselves if a buyer can find them easier through MLS .. this LESS services are provided by a realtor .. thus less time per client .. thus cheaper .. and realtor might do contract negotiations or property comparisons for a fee like a lawyer !
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (ThomasBeyer @ Oct 31 2010, 05:59 PM) services for WHAT though ?

services BY WHOM ?

sellers might do more showings themselves if a buyer can find them easier through MLS .. this LESS services are provided by a realtor .. thus less time per client .. thus cheaper .. and realtor might do contract negotiations or property comparisons for a fee like a lawyer !

Hmmm... Now Michael, for property showings, I`ll be charging $200 per hour plus 40cts per km to cover transportation. Ohh! I`d love to fill in and deliver some purchase offers for $300 per hour. What about writing the condition waiver at $75.00 each or referrals to home inspectors, mortgage brokers at $100 a pop? Title searches $69 each. Etc., Etc.

I`ll rent you my listing sign real cheap @ $50 per day, but its your responsibility that the sign is standing straight and clean on the property. If not, I`ll have to send in my own sign team and charge you $350 for `sign installation` and $200 per maintenance event. Will that be Neon or LED?


Next time you want to sit down with me for coffee at Starbucks for general consultation that will be $150 per hour (which includes travel time to my favorite watering hole or coffeeing hole??? No) plus coffee and an apple crumble!
 

MonteDobson

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Oct 31 2010, 08:53 PM) Hmmm... Now Michael, for property showings, I`ll be charging $200 per hour plus 40cts per km to cover transportation. Ohh! I`d love to fill in and deliver some purchase offers for $300 per hour. What about writing the condition waiver at $75.00 each or referrals to home inspectors, mortgage brokers at $100 a pop? Title searches $69 each. Etc., Etc.

I`ll rent you my listing sign real cheap @ $50 per day, but its your responsibility that the sign is standing straight and clean on the property. If not, I`ll have to send in my own sign team and charge you $350 for `sign installation` and $200 per maintenance event. Will that be Neon or LED?


Next time you want to sit down with me for coffee at Starbucks for general consultation that will be $150 per hour (which includes travel time to my favorite watering hole or coffeeing hole??? No) plus coffee and an apple crumble!

Godfried,

If you as a realtor value your time at ~$150/hr, can you honestly say that it takes over 100 hrs between the seller and buyer agents to transact a typical $300,000 property?

Not refuting the fact that professionals of all kinds need to get paid, just trying to get a better feel of the time vs value per property that is involved in a typical real estate transaction.
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Oct 31 2010, 08:53 PM) Hmmm... Now Michael, for property showings, I`ll be charging $200 per hour plus 40cts per km to cover transportation. Ohh! I`d love to fill in and deliver some purchase offers for $300 per hour. What about writing the condition waiver at $75.00 each or referrals to home inspectors, mortgage brokers at $100 a pop? Title searches $69 each. Etc., Etc.

I`ll rent you my listing sign real cheap @ $50 per day, but its your responsibility that the sign is standing straight and clean on the property. If not, I`ll have to send in my own sign team and charge you $350 for `sign installation` and $200 per maintenance event. Will that be Neon or LED?


Next time you want to sit down with me for coffee at Starbucks for general consultation that will be $150 per hour (which includes travel time to my favorite watering hole or coffeeing hole??? No) plus coffee and an apple crumble!


I suspect this is exactly what will happen, and I`m not happy about it. If sellers stop offering a buyers agent a commission, then buyer`s will have to compensate their agent directly. For me this is an issue, since money paid by the seller comes from the buyer (80% mortgage proceeds, 20% downpayment, in my case). If I have to pay the buyers agent myself on an a-la-carte basis, I have to pay them 100% in cash, whereas with the seller paid model now, I pay them 20% in cash and 80% in mortgage.

I don`t think the new rules will benefit me personally, but I`m always interested in discussing them.

Michael
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (MonteDobson @ Oct 31 2010, 10:56 PM) Godfried,

If you as a realtor value your time at ~$150/hr, can you honestly say that it takes over 100 hrs between the seller and buyer agents to transact a typical $300,000 property?

Not refuting the fact that professionals of all kinds need to get paid, just trying to get a better feel of the time vs value per property that is involved in a typical real estate transaction.


Hi Monte,

My previous post was made more in geste than that it was made as a serious analysis. But since you bring it up, let`s try to analyze. Most of my sales are from the buyers side since as a starting Realtor I do not have an extensive client base. Also, I focus mostly on small rental properties. So your $300,000 price tage is a bit generous.

A $300,000 sale provides in Alberta a total commission of $13,000 ($ 7000 on the first $100,000 and another $6000 on the remainder). Let`s go through the buyers Realtor.

The Realtor has to spend first time on getting clients through advertising and door knocking and posting on REIN, whatever. In Realtor school the following rule of thumb is given: I have to meet 5 people and handout them my business card or contact information to get 1 lead. I need to have at least 5 leads to get one prospective buyer or seller and I need at least 5 prospects to make one sale. (I may have misquoted this rule a bit but I think I am not far off).

So to make one sale I have to meet 5 x 5 x 5 = 125 people. Would you like to convert that in hours?

So now let`s go the next step. I have a prospect who wants to be shown a house. I sat down with the prospect for typically 2 hours to learn the prospect`s needs, conditions and requirements (some are faster others are a lot slower).

Costs incurred are typically some cups of coffee at $3.00 each plus gas to get to the meeting place and another 2 hours to get ready for the meeting and driving there. In Calgary traffic is truly bad - driving from A to B takes everytime at least half an hour. Sometimes I meet clients in the office, but it is usually better to meet them after working hours in a more neutral area to take of the pressure.

Next you set up the MLS listing search using the prospect`s criteria for a potential property and set up the e-mails with listing updates. I have many clients set up that way and some of those e-mail updates are running for half a year and longer. You have to respond to e-mails if criteria change or being refined. This takes a fair bit of my time since I have to check my e-mails for this daily. So say, per prospect this takes 3 hours on average from first meeting to purchase (if we ever get there).

The searches are used to learn more about the prospect`s preferences and the prospect uses them to select potential places for showings. Typically, we try to visit 4 places on a `showings day`. Once I am informed what properties the prospect may be interested in, I make appointments and set up a schedule. Typically that takes about 1 to 2 hours on and off work. The next day, I meet with the prospect in a pre-showing meeting and we go over the purchasing process (many of the prospects have no clue) point out the need for pre-qualifying with a mortgage broker, refering to mortgage brokers, filling out and explaining forms. Explaining Agency Relationship, commission structure, explaining and signing a Buyer-brokerage agreement, going through the properties to be shown. This takes typically 1 to 2 hours (the latter usually on the first showing day, on subsequent days it is often just under an hour). Now we`re ready to visit the showing places, typically each showing including driving takes 3/4 to 11/4 hour. So now we`re 4 hours on the road. Then coming back to the office/meeting area and dropping of the clients. So a showings day takes typically 8 hours plus gas, coffee and antacid tablets.

Most clients require 4 showings days. So that is 4 x 8 is 32 hours.

The client is ready to write the first offer. You do a CMA (2 - 3 hours) for similar properties in the area. You do a title search. You collect data on the condo corp such as the survey plan. Next you write a first draft offer. Total time 4 to 5 hours. Next you meet the clients go over the offer and discuss the purchasing conditions. Make sure the client has lined up a building inspector, a condo doc reviewer, a lawyer and is pre-qualified by a mortgage broker. Often you provide last minute referal lists. Sometimes the offer is delayed because not all the ducks are lined up. So including transportation time and arranging meetings, doing an offer takes about 10 hours - especially the first offer). Next you contact the seller`s realtor and explain the offer and set up a way to deliver. Sometimes we deliver in person, other times we just fax. Average delivery time 1.5 hours. Now you wait for a reponse.

Sometimes the counter offer is done verbally because the constant scribbling on purchase offers and sending back and forth would take many hours. This way, it is a lot faster. Overall the negotiating process to accept or decline takes 5 to 10 hours. Lots depend on whether buyers and sellers are easily reachable or are out of town.

Typically I write 1.5 offers before one is accepted. So per offer it is about 15 hours work and with 1.5 offer make that 23 hours.

The offer is accepterd, Yahoo!. We have to scan and send all contracts and documentation to my brokerage. These include true copies of the purchase contract, Agency Relation form, Buyer brokerage form, Fintrac, Receipt of deposit, copy of deposit cheques, print out of listing. This has also to be send to the buyer. 3 hours

Arranging for home inspection with seller`s Realtor, home inspector, seller and buyer. 1 to 2 hours.
Forwarding property information to mortgage broker and discussions of buyer`s financing particulars to ensure the mortgage gets approved. I had a client for whom we had to send this data to several brokers before a final mortgage commitment was achieved. Typically 2 hours.
Forwarding purchase contracts, listing info, etc. to Buyer`s Lawyer (1 hour)
Obtaining condo documentation (1 to 10 hours) depending on the situation - typically 4 hours including finding a condo doc reviewer and sending them the data.
Attending home inspection 2 - 3 hours.
Talking to buyer, seller`s realtor and experts to ensure conditions and dealines are met - 5 hours.
Writing condition waivers - 1 in 4 fail (all work done for nothing) 2 hours.

Hehe. Closing date is coming. Last minute issues, pre-possession inspection. Sometimes no time - other times 10 hours. On average 3 hours.

Did you ad that all up? I come up with 85 hours for a typical succesful sale, not counting all the failures.

So that is the buy side. How much do I get for that? 50% of $13000 = $6500 or $76 per hour. This does not take into account my CREB membership, RECA Member Ship . MLS fees, Broker fees, car and coffee fees. And the potential legal liabilities that a realtor unavoidably incurs. Typically, my after sh.t-take-home is around $3500.00 or I am netting on a succesful deal $41/hour. If I include the failures (remember the 125 people I have to meet before making a sale, I would work for less than minimum wage)

You know, this is why I said to my friends, considering the efforts it takes to sell a bl..dy property, I would be much better off working as a geologist. And now with all this Competition Bureau BS, I decided that being a Realtor is not worth it. I learned an awful lot about real estate and as such it was a very valuable journey. But really, just reading the bad rap Realtors get on this site, who in their right mind wants to be a Realtor? In my eyes many (there are crappy ones) Realtors are worth their money and much more.


PS I vaguely remember Adam (HousingRental) claiming that his Realtor wrote 80 offers before Adam had a succesful buy.
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Nov 1 2010, 11:02 AM) I would be much better off working as a geologist.

I`ve never been a geologist or a Realtor, so I can`t say for sure. (Although I know and respect a good number of people in both lines of work). But I suspect it is harder to become a geologist than it is to become a realtor, as a 4 year degree is a necessity, and many get a masters. It`s probably harder to become a very successful realtor though, as the competition amongst realtors is greater.

Michael
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Nov 1 2010, 11:49 AM) I`ve never been a geologist or a Realtor, so I can`t say for sure. (Although I know and respect a good number of people in both lines of work). But I suspect it is harder to become a geologist than it is to become a realtor, as a 4 year degree is a necessity, and many get a masters. It`s probably harder to become a very successful realtor though, as the competition amongst realtors is greater.

Michael


Michael,

You`re right. A Realtor`s license education in Alberta is about 3 to 4 months plus $7000 in tuition. I spend from 1971 until 1979 to get my Master`s in Geology and I had to emigrate to get a job.

Every profession has a green grass and a dark side. But the attrition rate amongst Realtors is frightening. In Calgary they train around 500 new realtors annually, 80% are gone in the first year. I started as a Geologist student with 100 students in my introductory class after which 50 remained. At year`s end there were 25 left and 20 made their Bachelors and 19 their Masters. Now after 30 years there are 17 left (I think).

Most surviving Realtors probably love Real Estate as much if not more than most REIN members. I think Real Estate is exciting and interesting and it was a great diversion after 40 years of geology. But Geology is still deep in my blood and now I have decided that after 4 years of semi-retirement it is worth going back in and learning about the latest developments on Shale Gas and SAGD. Geology can be rough, but it is also very rewarding. Everytime I hike around Canmore I can`t keep my eyes off the mountains. Wondering about their evolution and the evolution of the world/universe. It is not something you can just turn off. By Jolly, I tried
.

Real Estate investing, I consider fun. Don Campbell says that it must be boring, but when you realize that mountains rise as fast as your finger nails grow, you can image that what Don sees as long term, I see as exciting.
. It is all in the eyes of the beholder.
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (gwasser @ Nov 1 2010, 12:18 PM) but when you realize that mountains rise as fast as your finger nails grow, you can image that what Don sees as long term, I see as exciting.
.

I`m surprised the mountains grow that fast. Neat!

Michael
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Nov 1 2010, 12:22 PM) I`m surprised the mountains grow that fast. Neat!

Michael


Yeah it is neat. Imagine yourself as a fifty year old Dinosauer walking around 150 million years ago. You walk on a coastal plain where today there are the Rocky Mountains. This was one of the more active periods of North American mountain building when the North American Continents (Canadian Shield) collided with smaller continents near the Sushwap Lakes. The continental crust got shortened by more than 150 km but during your 50 year long dinosaur life the land below you moved 50 * 0.4 cm or 0.2 meters. You think you noticed?

Now image that 150 million years ago you invested in Calgary Real Estate at 6% annual appreciation!
 

housingrental

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Hi Godfried

Potential for $40 + dollars an hour for the first year of a job that requires less than half year of training isn`t much to complain about.

To ensure decent $$ while being a realtor you need to create an efficient lead generation system. Big $$$ on self promotion and the majority of time spent on work that doesn`t add value to a client can make your job less profitable. Same idea with administration and document prep work - this can be cut down, and when hired out to an administrator at ~$15 and hour allows for higher potentially hourly wage rate for the realtor. The challenge is creating effective systems and then generating enough business to keep you and your support staff busy. If you have minimal dead time between appointments, a solid backbone, and low cost per client acquired, there is big $$$$ to be made from being a realtor.

The recent changes forced on the industry will make things tougher, but there will always be the top portion that structure a profitable business for themselves.

It sounds like your you have decided to quit a race just as you started because you think you are too far from the finish line.
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (housingrental @ Nov 2 2010, 09:49 AM) Hi Godfried

Potential for $40 + dollars an hour for the first year of a job that requires less than half year of training isn`t much to complain about.

To ensure decent $$ while being a realtor you need to create an efficient lead generation system. Big $$$ on self promotion and the majority of time spent on work that doesn`t add value to a client can make your job less profitable. Same idea with administration and document prep work - this can be cut down, and when hired out to an administrator at ~$15 and hour allows for higher potentially hourly wage rate for the realtor. The challenge is creating effective systems and then generating enough business to keep you and your support staff busy. If you have minimal dead time between appointments, a solid backbone, and low cost per client acquired, there is big $$$$ to be made from being a realtor.

The recent changes forced on the industry will make things tougher, but there will always be the top portion that structure a profitable business for themselves.

It sounds like your you have decided to quit a race just as you started because you think you are too far from the finish line.

Adam,

You are wrong. It is plain not economic for me. Maybe it is for others but I make more money elsewhere with a lot less effort and a lot less liability. For a rookie Realtor there maybe some opportunity. Look like what Brett Turner of RedLine has achieved in under a decade. For me this is no option, I was looking for a retirement job and I ended up in a highly competitive market where the general public does not appreciate the services provided - just check out this board.

I did some statistics and the job of Realtor is not a fat pot, not even for many Realtors that are in the business for 10 years or longer. Yes in a fat year you may make $100,000 plus (top 5-10% of Realtors) but in the next down turn you make $30,000. A plumber charges $95 per hour. A house cleaning service cleans your place for between $80 and $125 per hour. I sold 6 places in 6 months after spending $10,000 for setting this business up and making approximately $2000 per month after expenses (not counting the education expenses). Shoot my daughter in a part time job at the grocery store makes not much less.

Even if I doubled to $4000 per month next year or $8,000 per month 3 years from now, that is not enough in my books. Because to do so requires a full time job and lots of overtime and another 3 years investment. Heck, a junior engineer makes $60,000 per year on day one! Average household income in Calgary is right now $70,000 per year and I should be happy with $96,000 after four years of fighting in the trenches and which requires me to be in the top 10 - 05% of my profession? Did you know that with my 6 sales I was in the top 40% of Calgary Realtors? In October there were 880 properties sold by 5500 plus Realtors in Calgary that is 0.2 property per Realtor. There are a lot easier ways to make that kind of money than being a Realtor.

In my books, the guys that do this work for 5 years or longer truly love what they`re doing and they love real estate. There is no doubt in my mind that a Realtor is worth his/her money no matter what some people on this website say. Don Campbell says to become a successful Real Estate investor you have to have a good team on your side to delegate work to; for me that includes a good Realtor not one who is desparate to carve out a living with the competition bureau breathing down his/her neck. If you don`t want to pay what a Realtor is worth that is your choice. But in the end, you get what you pay for.

As a succesful Real Estate investor who works in employment and buys Real Estate for future retirement income you have to delegate. You cannot do this work all by yourself. Manage properties, do the bookkeeping, look after your legal affairs, looking for your next investment. You need a good team and that includes a good Realtor. For such an investor to build a 10 year career as Realtor to become an expert in that field is probably not economic. Your time is much beter spend elsewhere: investing in real estate and earning a good daily income in your own field of expertise. Chances are you make more in your career than you ever will as a Realtor. This is for me the case and that is why it is not an economic option for me to be an Realtor.

This is not to complain about my choice to becoming a Realtor. It was a great life experience I would not have want to do without. If you want to learn more about real estate I highly recommend trying being a Realtor for a year or two. Just don`t expect to make money.
 

Berubeland

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I hear and agree with what you are saying Godfried, many years ago I did an internship with a real estate agent and even did the first course. I changed my mind when I realized how rapacious this industry is.

Now it seems to me that the Real Estate Associations have turned the real estate courses into a profit center as well. The more people take the courses the more money they make.

Then there`s the ubiquitous craigslist ads, almost every job posted in the real estate section is for agents, all promising leads and profits. They look and likely are scams. Legitimate good paying jobs do not have to post their offerings in this way on craigslist. Their ads look quite different.

These are today`s offerings for jobs.

JOIN OUR TEAM NOW HIRING REAL ESTATE AGENTS NO DESK FEES - (VAUGHAN)

JOIN OUR TEAM NOW HIRING REAL ESTATE AGENTS NO DESK FEES - (VAUGHAN)

Real Estate Career Night - (Greater Toronto Area)

Excellent location(Bay&Bloor),100% Commission, Full support & Training - (Full Service Brokerage,GTA)

New / Experienced REAL ESTATE AGENTS Needed Close 3 to 4 Deals a Month - (We Give You Pre-Qualified Clients)

BAY ST REAL ESTATE FIRM(RESIDENTIAL)CLIENT WILL PROVIDED - (GREATER TORONTO AREA)

ARE YOU PAYING MORE THAN $59 IN MONTHLY FEES!!! - (TORONTO)

PHASE 3 GRADUATES DON`T PAY MORE THAN $60 IN MONTHLY FEES!!! -

Attention Ambitious Realtors! -

The thing is that there are agents who make money, but as a thinking person I like to avoid industries where the chances of earning a decent living are just a little better than winning the Lotto 649. I don`t like "pay to work schemes" I also know least 10 agents, all of whom are barely scraping by, one`s been in the business for 20 years, he`s moonlighting now selling kitchens. This is why when people say "you would make a good real estate agent" I say no thanks.

This does not mean that I think home sellers get good value for their money hiring an agent. The system is broken. That`s the problem.

The commission the agent works to make is split over and over, every one want`s the money earned from his/her hard work, brokers, OREA, CREA, Local Real Estate Board. Meanwhile everyone thinks that he`s rich. Not so. Further in my lessons learned in business, it doesn`t matter how much you make in business but how much you get to keep that matters.
 

housingrental

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"The thing is that there are agents who make money, but as a thinking person I like to avoid industries where the chances of earning a decent living are just a little better than winning the Lotto 649. I don`t like "pay to work schemes" "


This is a bit much. Choosing to be a realtor as a profession isn`t playing the lottery. The majority of them that are honest, work hard, do it full time, stick with it for a few years or more to build a client base, are responsive to their clients needs, and seek to add value to a transaction will be able to turn it a reasonable paying job.

In choosing to be a realtor there are costs, risk, challenges, and barrier to success. This is to be found in many career paths and the experience is similar in many client service business`s. Mortgage brokers, general contractors, lawyers, or even property managers - There are few short cuts - dedication and time matter.

Godfried`s situation is more of unmet high expectations - He is a high income earner with significant expertise in a different field and from the above posts seems to be implying he was hoping to be parachuted into the same situation as a realtor. For a starting realtor in his first six months bringing in consistent business like he has been able to do for himself is success. It just wasn`t the success he was expecting.
 

gwasser

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QUOTE (housingrental @ Nov 4 2010, 08:54 AM) Godfried`s situation is more of unmet high expectations - He is a high income earner with significant expertise in a different field and from the above posts seems to be implying he was hoping to be parachuted into the same situation as a realtor. For a starting realtor in his first six months bringing in consistent business like he has been able to do for himself is success. It just wasn`t the success he was expecting.

Nearly right on. I did expect to make money with a lot less effort on a part time basis. My current rational is that if I have to work that hard anyway then I may as well go back into geology. Geology is in my blood and after a 4 year absence I hear it`s siren call.


At the same time, I also got a lot more appreciation and respect for Realtors. If some of my postings sounded bitter, that is absolutely the wrong impression ; blame it on the keyboard.
 

housingrental

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Hi Godfried
Good to hear I got something right in this topic

Hopefully getting back into Geology will keep you happier
 

Berubeland

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80% of real estate agents don`t make it through their first year in the business. I don`t like those odds. This signifies to me that there is something wrong with the industry as a whole. Furthermore, those that have made it through the gauntlet have a vested interest in keeping it the way it is. The entire Competition board saga was created due to their own predatory practices against EACH OTHER.

I`ll always remember when I did my internship, my boss wouldn`t even talk on the phone in her office because she was afraid other agents would overhear her and steal her leads. When she arranged to buy an old ladies house for $60,000 under market value through a friend of hers, well that`s when I made up my mind that I wanted no part of anything having to do with being a real estate agent.

Nothing I have seen so far, has changed my mind. There are some select individuals agents that I speak to and work with on a regular basis but these are the exception rather than the rule.
 

bizaro86

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QUOTE (Berubeland @ Nov 9 2010, 02:17 PM) 80% of real estate agents don`t make it through their first year in the business. I don`t like those odds.

I suspect that is also true of new flower shops, oil and gas service companies, restaurants, etc. Most new businesses have a high rate of failure, because you have to start from zero and compete against other businesses with an established clientele, systems, brand recognition etc.

Michael
 

RedlineBrett

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QUOTE (bizaro86 @ Nov 1 2010, 08:30 AM) I suspect this is exactly what will happen, and I`m not happy about it. If sellers stop offering a buyers agent a commission, then buyer`s will have to compensate their agent directly. For me this is an issue, since money paid by the seller comes from the buyer (80% mortgage proceeds, 20% downpayment, in my case). If I have to pay the buyers agent myself on an a-la-carte basis, I have to pay them 100% in cash, whereas with the seller paid model now, I pay them 20% in cash and 80% in mortgage.

I don`t think the new rules will benefit me personally, but I`m always interested in discussing them.

Michael

Good buyer agents will be able to work their commissions into the sale prices of listings. They`ll just up the negotiated price along with an addendum that stipulates fees to be paid to the buyer brokerage. So say you are paying 480 on a 500 list price and your buyer agent is due 10k. Well you just amend the contract price to 490k and pay your realtor like you normally would. You don`t have to go out of pocket if you don`t want to, you can work the buyer commission into the deal.

I think it will be a long time before we see `a-la`carte` style buyer representation services. If low buyer-agent commissions become popular what you`ll more likely see are exclusive buyer brokerage agreements with the occasional deposits paid up front.
 

RedlineBrett

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QUOTE (Berubeland @ Nov 3 2010, 11:55 AM) Now it seems to me that the Real Estate Associations have turned the real estate courses into a profit center as well. The more people take the courses the more money they make.

This is definitely true. And most brokerage business models are built on having lots of agents and charging them monthly fees to hold their licenses.
 
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