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How to get the information I need from Real Estate Agents or Real Estate Brokers without bothering them?

XavierCP

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Don’t disagree just because of what is said in a book. Disagree because you have experienced things differently.
Really try to listen to what is said on this forum and the advice given. When it is said to invest close to home, keep a close eye on things and manage the property yourself, really take that to heart, as you are a beginning investor. The lessons learned will be very valuable and will make or break in how successful you will be in the RE investing game.

Furthermore, not sure how old the book is you are reading, but proffesional prop management runs at a minimum of 10%, but realistically at years end, including all the upcharges, showing fees, move in and out inspection fees etc, you will find its more like 15%. Everyone wants to take a piece of your cake, and preferably as large of a piece as possible.

Anyone that’s has been succefull in any kind of business came up with an idea, worked their business, learn through trial and error, improve and make bizz more profitable and eventually build a good life for themselves. Thats how it is in the RE game.

One other thing I would like to point out, it seems you want to become a real estate investor first and foremost, (correct me if I wrong) but you will find most investors on this forum started elsewhere, making money in bizz, or having very good jobs with good pay, or people that are and have been very good with their own financial resources. From there on they moved into real estate and to find an in general safe way to park their hard earned money.

I understand the life style you are leading on Bali can be very intoxicating, lots of sunshine and time to read books at the pool with a cocktail on the side, everything looks good (easy) when the sun shines, but can you also weather the storm when the thunder rolls in?

Keep asking the question, don’t over analyze, take practical advice to heart, work hard in your everyday life and move forward with purchasing your first prop. cheers!

Thank you Martin1968 for your advices I took good notes of it!
 

XavierCP

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I disagree with investing close to home and I disagree with managing property myself

I’ve done neither

And I would definitely not want to manage property myself. Finding more investments or not, I have better things to do with my time

I would argue that wanting to manage your own property is actually a terrible idea. Why? People start thinking that they can make an investment “work” because they’ll be doing all the management themselves and they get lazy with valuation. Wanting to manage your own property gives people a reason to rationalize bad investment decisions

What’s the benefit of managing my own properties? Nothing
I would agree with you Rickson9!
 

XavierCP

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Due to RE investing I have so much time on my hands, managing the props
actually gives me something to do........
So you would say that managing your properties doesn't eat up your time to investigate to buy new properties?

In my situation, I still have to find the time between my work, my RE analysis and personal life. I have difficulties to think I would be able to manage work, RE analysis, RE management and personal life.
 

XavierCP

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Very common it seems with sfh’s especially for those who get over eager after drinking the koolAid. Pricing yourself into managing something is generally counter to the goal of investment real estate. Although not always, some people are actually wanting a part time job.

Doesn’t help that everybody and their dog is now pitching properties with $65 monthly cash flow using no charge for property management, 2% repairs/ maintenance, 2% vacancy, & last years property taxes $ etc etc and people are taking this as ~ normal. When you see people presenting on the stage with “deals” like this on their company webpages it becomes even more normalized.


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I guess it's not black or white but me personally I am not looking to manage properties for the reason that I would like to continue be expat for most of the year so in that situation it won't be possible for me to manage the properties.
 

XavierCP

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Exactly! it’s about giving advice to a newbie investor.
Without making this thread into a property management versus self management discussion, the notion that there is no benefit to self managing is just as ridiculous as me declaring there are no benefits using property management companies. Of course there are benefits to both. And if the latter works for you that’s great. Convenience comes with a price but if you are prepared to pay for worry free investing then that’s great.

But for a beginning investor, many benefits to self managing your first few props.

Following the REIN network system, the Authentic Canadian Real Estate System, I am looking to calculate the monthly management expenses in the property analyzer calculation and if I am not able to have a positive cash flow then that property won't be a good fit to reach my goal.
 

kfort

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I guess it's not black or white but me personally I am not looking to manage properties for the reason that I would like to continue be expat for most of the year so in that situation it won't be possible for me to manage the properties.

Im not against self managing at all. Full disclosure, I self manage 13 units currently from 4.5 hours away. But I spent a boatload of time setting up the systems to do it so that when I had 9 turnovers last year my time inputs were minimal.

I am absolutely opposed to overpaying and making the numbers work by saying “oh I can just manage that one myself...” that’s crazy ness.

I do this business so that the day my bald head turns 45 I don’t have to do anything that I don’t want to. That’s the end game for me. That’s the focus. I never wanted a part time job. I self manage from 4.5 hr away better than 90%+ of managers that are 4 minutes away. But the day that it becomes too much of an annoyance I’ve budgeted minimum of 10% for every door to pay someone else to do it.

If you can only make the numbers work by self managing you’re not just buying a house, you’re buying a 2nd job too. REIN always talks about the alligators eating your lunch, alligators eat your LIFE if you buy half a dozen properties requiring self management and suck at it. I know folks in my market that spend more man hours per month on a handful of houses than I spent in a year on mine.

NEVER buy a second job.


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Martin1968

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So you would say that managing your properties doesn't eat up your time to investigate to buy new properties?

In my situation, I still have to find the time between my work, my RE analysis and personal life. I have difficulties to think I would be able to manage work, RE analysis, RE management and personal life.

If your goal is to continue living on Bali, but invest in Canada, you will have no other choice then going the property management route.
Now, in order to fully understand how proffesional property management works, my question to you would
be that if you are fine with giving full control to a management company, have them collect the rent, deduct all their proffesional fees and your property expenses and send you a cheque for the remainder, will you be able to make up any shortfall on negative cashflow? Cause honestly, with the minimal cashflow you will be able to achieve in the markets you want to invest in, your investment will very likely be cashflow negative in no time.

About your question if managing is eating up my time and if it has any consequences, nope not at all.

I think you need to figure out what self managing means.
I’m self managing, not self maintenance.
So, no I don’t replace a leaky kitchen tap or fixing a dishwasher or cutting the grass and do snow shoveling.
I manage.......so everyone is in place, all phone numbers for plumbers, electricians and appliance repair guys on speed dial, billing by email, paying online. The odd tenant issue is solved over the phone. Man it’s so easy. All from my lazy chair or, has it has happened from my holiday address abroad. And just like @kfort
my props are anywhere between 1.5 to 2.5 hrs away from my primary residence.

If you are not able to do that, then live with the reality that a $300 drywall job becomes a $1000 drywall job managed by a property manager with their own maintenance crew. And I can give you more example is you like. As soon as the word ‘landlord’ is scribbled on your forehead, your quotes for jobs seem to come in higher.

Having said all that, when you get to that point of 30+ doors it becomes a bit harder to do all this. But it all depends on how big you wanna grow, I’m comfortable where I’m at, keeping my eyes open for new opportunities but will also be selling off in order to maintain my lifestyle.

At the end of the day you will have to decide what works best or you personally.
 

Rickson9

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Well done! Hardly a junior strategy or recommendation to a newbie just starting out. Not to mention simultaneously becoming a currency speculator, hence your return is very much dependent on the (massively) fluctuating exchange rate of more than 25% in the past decade. This may make sense to a very select few sophisticated investors, but too much complexity and risk for a beginner strategy in my opinion.

There’s little to no risk or speculation buying B class US property when C$ = US$ and gross annual rent is > 20% of purchase price

That’s just an easy decision

As close to a slam dunk as you’ll get

Ever

I took 40k C$ in cash, bought a B class 2/2 condo in the US, rented it for 700 US$/mo. Rinse and repeat

Seems like a junior strategy to me. That’s how I started
 
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kfort

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Nah, all good discussions. We’re off topic by a long shot by now anyway! If we’re ever at par again (once every 40 years so far doesn’t have me hopeful) I’ll make another trip to Vegas and grab a truck, trailer, 6 skidoo’s in Denver on the way back and turn the profits into a condo in a warm place somewhere down there.


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XavierCP

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if you are fine with giving full control to a management company, have them collect the rent, deduct all their proffesional fees and your property expenses and send you a cheque for the remainder,
It doesn't seem to be the way of proceeding (have them collect the rent...)? I wouldn't do that. I am expecting to pay for their management fees but these days rent payments can be made online.

Thanks for your feedbacks.
 

Rickson9

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When C$ and US$ reach parity again it will be time for me to shop for more US RE and stocks. It will happen. Always does. No reason not to be prepared

In the meantime, the monthly US$ cash is useful in both Canada and the US

The PM companies I use in various US cities take care of everything. I don’t have a single key to any of my rentals. I discuss financials with my respective account managers when I need to

I get weekly calls, monthly and quarterly letters from different US investors looking to buy, manage, or loan against, the mortgage-free product that I own. It must be competitive down there
 

XavierCP

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When C$ and US$ reach parity again it will be time for me to shop for more US RE and stocks. It will happen. Always does. No reason not to be prepared

In the meantime, the monthly US$ cash is useful in both Canada and the US

The PM companies I use in various US cities take care of everything. I don’t have a single key to any of my rentals. I discuss financials with my respective account managers when I need to

I get weekly calls, monthly and quarterly letters from different US investors looking to buy, manage, or loan against, the mortgage-free product that I own. It must be competitive down there
Do you really trust the PM companies?
Are you doing your accountancy?
 

Matt Crowley

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My two cents on this...

If you have 20 units+ properties you can get pretty good PM who will provide adequate reporting.

Below that threshold, you are probably better to do it yourself in Alberta anyway. Calgary / Edmonton doesn't have any good small PMs I have found. There are tons of guys you can hire as individuals from myReinSpace / Kijiji who will be able to show a property, provide a two page report and interpret the financials against the annual budget and monitor the cyclicals. I have zero interest in talking to the maintenance guy or leasing out the place. I hire a competent, private person and pay them market rates and get a result that is better than any of the small PMs can hope to get. I went through a list of every smaller-sized property PM and their reporting in Edmonton and was very underwhelmed at the lack of sophistication and very high fees. No reporting whatsoever outside of the calculation of their monthly fee.

Challenge is that my leisure time is worth a premium so if I want to go to the mountains instead of show my place, I'm going. But that may mean I lost $1200. So why not pay that to a PM, go to the mountains and do zero work? The money is made in purchasing at the right value and solid asset management. Money is lost on bad property management but very easy to manage yourself.

If you get to a good scale, for sure take PM in house (hire a real PM, you want to oversee that not operate it personally). It is great to have that income as a backbone to the business and keeps you in control of the execution of the business plan.
 

Martin1968

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My two cents on this...

If you have 20 units+ properties you can get pretty good PM who will provide adequate reporting.

Below that threshold, you are probably better to do it yourself in Alberta anyway. Calgary / Edmonton doesn't have any good small PMs I have found. There are tons of guys you can hire as individuals from myReinSpace / Kijiji who will be able to show a property, provide a two page report and interpret the financials against the annual budget and monitor the cyclicals. I have zero interest in talking to the maintenance guy or leasing out the place. I hire a competent, private person and pay them market rates and get a result that is better than any of the small PMs can hope to get. I went through a list of every smaller-sized property PM and their reporting in Edmonton and was very underwhelmed at the lack of sophistication and very high fees. No reporting whatsoever outside of the calculation of their monthly fee.

Challenge is that my leisure time is worth a premium so if I want to go to the mountains instead of show my place, I'm going. But that may mean I lost $1200. So why not pay that to a PM, go to the mountains and do zero work? The money is made in purchasing at the right value and solid asset management. Money is lost on bad property management but very easy to manage yourself.

If you get to a good scale, for sure take PM in house (hire a real PM, you want to oversee that not operate it personally). It is great to have that income as a backbone to the business and keeps you in control of the execution of the business plan.

I can agree on most things said. I think what it comes down to is what your personal situation is like. If I were to be in my twenties, and having a regular daytime job and would do real estate investing on the side, I would purchase premium products, i.e. fully updated rental props, that attract a good tenant profile and above average rents. Hire a p.m. and treat it as a passive investment, knowing I have 25 yrs or more to make it part of a retirement goal of where I would want to be at age 50.

But I do believe that managing of your own properties is not as bad as some investors make it sound like on this forum. I do believe that many on the Rein forum do manage their own props, and they are doing just fine.
Personally, I’m having a blast managing my props and I actually quite enjoy it, keeping a close tab on my investments, finding it very enjoyable to meet with applicants, guiding them though the process, making them happy with renting out a very good product and collecting above average rents.
Having said that, I couldn’t do this besides having a FT job. But since this is all I do, my annual savings compared to hiring a p.m. are significant, in fact I would argue my days of leisure time per month is more then I bargained for. Heck... I’ll skip my leisure day in the mountains and booked a month holidays to Portugal in September and a month to Costa Rica next March!!! How’s that for leisure time.......
 

angelapeng

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Property Management is a very critical part of long term real estate holding business. We have been running the real estate investment and holding for over 13 years. During this time, we gradually purchased, renovated, rented and managed the portfolio of 12 properties, some 100% owned, some of JV owned.

During the first 10 years, I was acting as the acquisition manager, capital raising manager, and physical property manager. The reasons that I wore so many hats are 1) I want to learn the trades and skills to build up a portfolio that lasts for long term to provide financial freedom; 2) I can not afford to hire a property manager at the time, thus, I have to do it myself. (I was doing this full time, and live on the 10% property management fees and positive cash flows). I was not very busy physically managing the property and tenants, however, I was intimately aware of the local regulations and laws, know the property and tenants inside and out. So, at the time I built up 4 properties with great cash flow, I started to bring JV partners in about 7 years ago, within two years, we doubled size of the properties. By 2016, we started to hire an external property manager, and my job is to oversee's financials and occasionally participate into the decisions specifically related to the properties.

I have evaluated the value of the property manager versus the cost. Our property manager charges about 15% of the rental income (including tenancy fees, monthly managements, tax and occasionally extra required etc, but the market rate is about 12-15%), it is not cheap, but we can afford this cost now.

Our real estate business also evolved as well, we have since sold 6 properties to a developer last year, and now we only have 6 left, the cost of property manager is about $2000 per month. However, at this stage of our investing life, it is worth to pay for the cost, so that we can focus on other things of our choice.

In summary, whether property management is done by oneself or not depends on each individual's personal situation. It is conditioned on one's financial's, time commitment and stage of investing life. For me, to graduate from self-management to outsource the property management is an organic and holistic way of developing the business, so that I really know what and whom I am dealing with in this critical part of the business. Just like a good venture capitalist is better coming from an entrepreneur background, so that they resonate with each other, and speak the same language.
 
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